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Penn & Teller’s Bullsh*t!

For those that don’t know: Penn & Teller are one of the world’s most famous magic acts. They are also card-carrying Randi-acolytes and have a debunking show called Penn & Teller: Bullsh*t!. Here’s an early (2003) episode on near-death experiences (warning: NSFW language):

Glad that’s all cleared up. Although perhaps psychology professor Barry Beyerstein (who, sadly, died suddenly in 2007 aged 60) could have used more precise wording. Sure, “neuroscientists are thoroughly convinced that near-death experiences are things that happen when normal brain function is disrupted and the brain is shutting down.” There certainly are neuroscientists out there who believe that to be the case, so technically he’s correct. But then, there’s guys like Dr Peter Fenwick who don’t believe that to be the case (and more recently, Dr Mario Beauregard), so we could also say just as clearly that “neuroscientists are unconvinced that near-death experiences are simply things that happen when normal brain function is disrupted and the brain is shutting down.” Perhaps Beyerstein’s wording could have something to do with him being a founding member of CSICOP…nah, surely not.

But Barry Beyerstein has nothing on Penn, who is so sure that he’s figured out the “real life explanation” for NDEs that he’s ready to “dance and shout taunting phrases at ‘truthseekers’ like Raymond [Moody].” It’s simple really: “cut off the blood to the brain and nearly 18% of us have an NDE.”

Except the blood flow to the brain theory was one of the earliest explanations put forward for NDEs, but it didn’t hold water. For one, NDEs have been known to happen in situations where blood flow continued (e.g. in falls from heights and near-accident situations) – which does not prove in any way that NDEs are a glimpse of the afterlife…but it does make Penn look not only ignorant, but obnoxious to boot. In fact, in Irreducible Mind – which goes through all the current ‘explanations’ suggested to explain NDEs – we read that the one study frequently cited for the bloodflow theory is…

…that of Whinnery (1997), who compared NDEs to what he called the “dreamlets” occurring in brief periods of unconsciousness induced in fighter pilots by rapid acceleration in a centrifuge (this reduces blood flow, and therefore delivery of oxygen, to the brain). He claimed that some features common to NDEs are also found in these hypoxic episodes, including tunnel vision, bright lights, brief fragmented visual images, a sense of floating, pleasurable sensations, and, rarely, a sense of leaving the body. The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.

The most refreshing part of the video is in fact the NDErs themselves – they make clear that they can understand people’s skepticism, and encourage it, but that their experience convinced them personally. And yet Penn still knows more than they do, saying “why wouldn’t our brains freak out a little when injured or dying… Why is that so hard to understand for these people?” In case Penn isn’t aware of other NDE research apart from that of James Whinnery, that “why” would probably be answered by (a) the ‘hyper-realness’ of the experience reported by NDErs, (b) oft-reported cases of evidential OBEs, (d) the fact that people perceive the same set of archetypal elements, despite different inciting crises, and (d) other odd elements such as the life review, where people report reliving their complete lives over again, in 3D panoramas, and yet happening in the blink of an eye.

Personally, I’m still not convinced that NDEs offer proof of an afterlife. But likewise I am yet to see any orthodox theory that can explain it (as yet). As such, the experience (and experiencer) deserves a lot less ridicule, and a whole lot more honest study. . Now I know that Penn & Teller are entertainers, and Bullsh*t! has it’s particular flavour of ridicule and humour which can be a fun ride (though not particularly my flavour of funny), so I’m not saying this to be stuffy or defensive. I’m just saying it to point out that Penn & Teller…errr….bullshit. They glossed over the more interesting facets of the phenomenon, they set up easy targets rather than talking to the hard-nosed scientists investigating NDEs, and they promoted a bogus explanation. Skepticism fail…I guess that’s what happens when they go looking for “proof of whatever their particular myth believes.”

Having said that, I whole-heartedly endorse Penn’s final comments on not fixating on death and what may be beyond, but on living life. Ironically enough, his closing comments are almost word-for-word the ‘message’ that NDErs ‘bring back’ – that you should live your life well, honestly, thinking of others, and questing for knowledge. Sometimes the divide between ‘skeptics’ and ‘believers’ isn’t as great as some might like to imagine…

Editor
  1. I find these clowns to be
    I find these clowns to be unwatchable. The constant shouted expletive laden “explication” looks just like a psyop to me. That these jokers can’t see through the obvious legerdemain of the 911 op means they are meant to distract and mislead. Phonies.

  2. interesting
    [quote]
    …For one, NDEs have been known to happen in situations where blood flow continued (e.g. in falls from heights and near-accident situations) – which does not prove in any way that NDEs are a glimpse of the afterlife…
    [/quote]
    So, to experience an NDE it is not necessary to be anywhere near death?

    These things then may not have any connection to the after-life, if you can experience them with a healthy brain under normal operating conditions.

    1. Here is a goodlittle article
      Here is a goodlittle article on Penn and Teller’s real bullshit which is that they often use “association fallacy” to “argue.” Of course that is not “argument.”

      http://www.gatecreepers.com/entries/exclusive-debunking-penn-and-tellers-bullshit/

      Here also is a great little interview with Persinger on the topic of NDE’s, telepathy, and his latest discoveries via neurological tests:

      http://www.skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/

      1. wrong thread?
        Maybe I have the wrong thread. I was under the impression that NDEs were experienced only by people who were, well, near death in the physical way. As in no brain activity. The one line I quoted seems to say that this is not so, there have been a few NDEs by people who were awake. Is that the case?

        My question has nothing to do with Penn’s personality, or anyone else’s. So maybe if this is exclusively a Penn-bashing thread, I’m asking in the wrong place.

        1. Physiological vs Psychological
          [quote=earthling]Maybe I have the wrong thread. I was under the impression that NDEs were experienced only by people who were, well, near death in the physical way. As in no brain activity. The one line I quoted seems to say that this is not so, there have been a few NDEs by people who were awake. Is that the case?[/quote]

          Yes, there are many tales of NDEs by people who were ‘awake’ at the time. NDEs seems to be precipitated by both physiological (e.g. cardiac arrest) or psychological (e.g. while falling from a cliff face, seeing an approaching car about to t-bone you) threat of death. This has been known since Albert Heim’s 1892 article about the experiences of falling alpine climbers (and other assorted ‘almost death’ experiences).

          Again, from Irreducible Mind:

          Although the widespread impression is that NDEs occur among patients who have been clinically dead and then resuscitated, they in fact occur in a wide variety of medical circumstances. An examination of medical records in cases in our collection showed that slightly more than half of the patients, although ill enough to have been hospitalized, were at no time in danger of dying; NDEs may therefore occur when patients fear they are dying even if in fact they are not. Moreover, NDEs can also occur when patients are suddenly confronted with death but escape unharmed, as in falls or near-accidents.

          This has led many people to suggest that NDEs are a psychological defence against the threat of death – perhaps most notably, Noyes and Kletti’s “depersonalization theory”.

          1. hmm
            So there could be effects such as:

            – Expectation of imminent death. This would be a skeptical, purely psychological one.

            – Near on the Schrödinger scale – only a few quantum decisions away. In the neighboring universe, you’ve had it.

            Note both are purely physical, and don’t unseat the mind from the brain.

          2. Options
            [quote=earthling]So there could be effects such as:

            – Expectation of imminent death. This would be a skeptical, purely psychological one.

            – Near on the Schrödinger scale – only a few quantum decisions away. In the neighboring universe, you’ve had it.

            Note both are purely physical, and don’t unseat the mind from the brain.[/quote]

            Or:

            – Mind is separate from brain, and can be loosed from it. Sometimes through mystical/hallucinogenic experiences. Othertimes, when death looks likely, the mind leaves the no longer usable brain behind.

            – As death looks imminent, the brain slows time perception to a crawl, allowing us ‘eternal’ life, and produces a ‘fake’ experience designed to trick ourselves into believing that we have entered an afterlife.

            – As our programmed code in the Matrix terminates, the final procedures that run put us ‘outside ourself’ in order to do a final review of our algorithm and pass the results to the mainframe.

            And so on. The point being, we still don’t know what NDEs are, or what their purpose is, and we should study them further in a serious manner. The other (original) point being (hey, “maybe *I’m* in the wrong thread”), that Penn and Teller bullsh*t. 😉

          3. That’s the one for me
            [quote=Greg]
            – Mind is separate from brain, and can be loosed from it. Sometimes through mystical/hallucinogenic experiences. Othertimes, when death looks likely, the mind leaves the no longer usable brain behind.

            [/quote]

            This one gets my vote. Maybe the consciousness/mind/spirit/soul is bound to the physical vehicle during physical life but, under certain conditions, is able to go out on excursions. Maybe the place it goes to after physical death is just a dimensional side-step away. Like millions of others, I think I may have visited that place in my dreams.

            Dave.

          4. The boo i read recently on
            The book i read recently on multiple universes stated that other universes would be less than the distance across an atom away. I wish it had gone into more detail though.

            It just depends on how our matter and energy is bound to these dimensions. String theory straps us to them because of the structrue of the dimensions containing the strings. Perhaps consciousness can slip across sometimes. Maybe it is easier when asleep or close to death, or indeed when dead.

            I think it was Carol or Kathrinn that suggested once that maybe we can’t all do this though, perhaps not because of meditation or spirituality or anything like that, but because of randomness or luck or something else.

            I like the idea of the afterlife for everybody personally, no matter what you believe.

          5. think of it this way…..
            this reality that WE are shareing now is just a “side step” of diversion or even a hobby of our true eternal existance.

            Just something to pass away the eternity…….lol

  3. This says it all . . .
    “Perhaps Penn and Teller would like to do a show where they melt WTC steel with nothing more than jet fuel: it would be quite the magic trick…”

        1. As best I have heard, the
          As best I have heard, the evidence for anything that was both molten (ie. liquid, as opposed to hot, glowing or malleable) and steel at WTC is inadequate.

          1. Oh really?
            http://blog.lege.net/content/20060721_htm7_files/MoltenCloseup1.JPG

            http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/thermiteonwtccolumns.jpg

            http://www.twf.org/News/Y2007/1017-moltenmetal.jpg

            http://blog.lege.net/content/20060721_htm7_files/Molten2Low.JPG

            http://guardian.150m.com/false-opp/molten-steel-cols.jpg

            http://doujibar.ganriki.net/english/e-othertheme/kennedydebris10.jpg

            Yah, you must be right, there is absolutely zero credidible evidence that there was any molten metal or sheared girders . . .except for the fact that I clearly remember hearing it being reported on as it was happening and I have friends who were in NYC when it happened and they remember a big deal being made out of it afterwards as the area was very hot for a good while even though they were dumping water on the site for days.

  4. Penn & Teller’s Septic Tank Service
    For anyone researching subjects like, NDE, life after death, etc. a little skepticism is entirely healthy. But Penn and Teller are not about healthy skepticism. They are about entertainment. Read: the ridicule of others for laughs.

    I find this level of skepticism absolutely disgusting. If one wants to devote serious time to the study of any subject, it is one thing. But to give oneself to the disproving of someone else’s beliefs… or to ridicule them and call it a career move, is just cesspool.

  5. Penn Jillette is a textbook libertarian shill.
    is a textbook libertarian shill. A self refuting dolt that constantly, loudly and obnoxiously questions everything except the wacky movement that he has attached himself to.

    1. wasting time
      as Redoubt suggested, this is all intertainment only.
      These people do this crap for money……..nothing more.

      If you jump up and down and make a noise about it, they have done their job and earnt their wages.

      If it’s crap……ignor it…..

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