Click here to support the Daily Grail for as little as $US1 per month on Patreon

News Briefs 06-09-2007

Thursday again, and my supply seems to be dwindling. Who do I talk to about ordering some more?

Thanks Rick.

Quote of the Day:

God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won’t tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.

Terry Pratchett

Editor
  1. Deep Sea Treasure… HELL YEAH!
    “It’s clearly going to be a protracted legal battle, but we think it would only be right to let another set of plaintiffs stake their claim to the treasure, too: Spain’s former colonies in Latin America, where the loot was looted in the first place.

    The hoard of gold and silver coins that sunk with the Mercedes was probably minted in Peru – from where the galleon set sail for Cadiz, via Montevideo, in March of 1804.”

    I agree with this author. In fact not too long ago I had written a simmilar comment here in TDG. That treasure should be give to UNESCO so they can administer into program that help the children in these latin american countries; Spain should advocate for this on their own, since it would be a great publicity stunt anyway. I don’t think it should be given to a single government because the great malady of Latin America is corruption (believe me, I KNOW).

    What’s your take on these kind of retribution affairs? African americans seeking economic compensation for the slavery of their ancesters, native americans runing casinos on their lands, jewish survivors of the holocaust (and their families) seeking retribution from the Swiss banks that held the accounts of the nazi criminals of war… the list might be endless!

    —–
    It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
    It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

    Red Pill Junkie

    1. finders
      First rights should go to the people who actually recover this stuff.

      Everyones, like Spain or the original inhabitants of Peru, lost this stuff, through their own incompetence. And they made no attempt to recover it.

      Now someone goes to the trouble of recovering it, and the lazy governments who never did anything about it raise their grubby little finger, saying “it was mine before” ?

      I say if some government wants to claim this stuff, they should go find and recover it themselves.

      —-
      Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

      1. It is a good argument.
        The people who found it should get a fee then. But do they have the right over the entirety of the treasure?

        —–
        It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
        It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

        Red Pill Junkie

        1. depending
          Depending on where the wreck is located, I would say yes they have the rights to the whole thing if it is in international waters.

          The argument that this is cultural heritage belonging to Spain (or Peru) is bogus. Spain doesn’t want the cultural heritage, they want the gold and silver. It’s about money.

          The government of Spain has the means to go look for wrecks like this one themselves, but they don’t do it.

          I say this is just business. The people (companies) looking for these wrecks assume 100% of the risk, so they should be entitled to 100% of returns.

          —-
          Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

          1. Again I think you’re right.
            It just that it bothers me that the countries of Latin America were exploited for so many centuries, so naturally even if these wreckages were inside their territories, they wouldn’t have the economic means to retrieve them. It would be a gracious gest if they received some form of compensation.

            The thing that worries me is not really whether guys like these go and find the lost city of Atlantis and claim ownership or something. It’s about retribution. The first-world countries acquired their wealth because they exploited the resources of the poor defenseless nations, and that inequality has somewhat endured despite the years (true, not all the maldies of the developing nations are to be blamed to the rich countries, but in many instances they were the originators).

            The european museums are filled with treasures taken from all over the world, be that the bust of Nefertiti that Zahi Hawass is trying to obtain from Berlin, or our own Moctezuma’s feathered crown that remains in Austria. How will we accomplish the necessary balance this world desperately needs to survive?

            Remember that movie National Treasure with Nicolas Cage? I always loved the fact that in the end he willingly renounced his rights to claim the whole thing for himself. That wouldn’t happen in the real world I know, but that’s one of the reasons I love the movies πŸ™‚

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          2. victims and perpetrators
            Yes many countries (or areas) were exploited by “Western” nations. But at this point in time, all the original victims and perpetrators have been dead for at least 100 years. So who would be punished (with a fine basically), and who would be paid?

            The interesting artifacts in museums – modern Egyptians have next to nothing in common with Nefertiti. They just happen to live in the same place.

            Also I don’t think the Inca empire was defenseless against the few hundred Spanish. It was just that the Inca leaders were inept, and highly unpopular. (I pick the Inca here to keep some connection with the original topic of the wreck.)

            Certainly, many countries were exploited by Spain, Portugal, England, France, and the Netherlands. Their colonies suffered. But I don’t think it is accurate to say that the Western countries became rich because of this. There are other Western countries that never had significant colonies to exploit, and these countries became just as rich. Basically because of industrialization, infrastructure development, and some improvements in social structure. By that last one I mean a somewhat more even income distribution, which is not just a moral issue. It also creates a larger internal market. But that is a different topic.

            —-
            Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

          3. Original victims.
            I recently watched a Penn & Teller program regarding retribution seeked by african americans for the slavery of their ancesters. It’s not that I’m a big fan of the show, but it was interesting nonetheless.

            Yes, the original victims have died, and the original victimizers are dead. Economic compensation won’t solve anything in the end because look at how much money is been thrown to african countries and they still live in terrible poverty. The thing would be to attain equal opportunities, that latin american farmers have the same opportunities and help that their american counterparts so their produce can compete in the international market. That african americans have exactly the same type of education in their neighborhoods than white kids so they can pursuit other means to achieve their dreams besides becoming a rapper, a sport jockey or a drug dealer.

            The fact is that because of the history of the last 200 years at least, some countries had less oportunities for advancement than others, and whether we like it or not we have to attain some form of balance, because those people are not going to willingly accept their fate of famine and injustice, they either will choose to move from their points of origin and seek a better living for their families, to countries that may or may not welcome them, or they will grow bitter and turn to violence and terrorism.

            Mexico is a third world country. That term is not very PC nowadays and they preferr the term “developing economies” and they say we are part of a group of nations that will grow our economy to the level of Europe and North America, like India and China. But if what’s happening in Mexico is an example of what’s happening in those countries, then to become a “rich” nation won’t solve squat, since the wealth will be in the hands of a very small group. I just read that Mexico is the biggest market for exotic cars in Latin America, and that companies like Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes Benz sell some of their most expensive cars here. In a country where 40 million people live in extreme poverty (that means they have less than a dollar a day to live) it is utterly disgusting; and it is a sure recipe for social disaster.

            Now getting back to Egypt and cultural heritage: Nowadays the nations’ populace is so mixed that nobody can really claim they are original descendants of anyone. Even the so-called native americans have a little of european blood. If you saw a photo of me you probably wouldn’t buy I’m mexican, since a)I have light skin and a beard, and b)I’m 6′-4″ tall (193 cm). So does that make me less “mexican” than a guy with a darker tone of skin? Should that make inappropiate my sense of pride when I stare at the splendours of the ancient mexican civilizations?

            Yes the modern egyptians have almost nothing in common with the guys that built the pyramids from a genetical point of view. But they recognize those as their ancester from a cultural perspective, and that in my opinion gives them the right to seek that the european museums retrieve their cultural inheritance.

            In the end culture will be the only thing that will remain from our ancesters’ notion of “country” in the centuries to come, since the borders of the nations are getting blurrier and blurrier, and their ethnic gene pool are getting more dilluted.
            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          4. Important points
            Some important points here, Red. First of all, we must go back to the conception of modern capitalism in Adam Smith. What is often forgotten is that he applied the morality of a market economy to a society steeped in the concept of thrift. Indeed, he argued that thrift was essential to it becoming fair.
            This bit has been forgotten. Hence the excess and the rich/poor divide.
            The ‘culture’ aspect of a people in a ‘place’ is also vital. In a globalised world we often forget that the land – the geography – you exist in can be as important as genetic inheritance. This is not appreciated in the west, and the constant flood of ‘western’ images offers a seemingly easier ride than this sense of the local.
            But what it actually does is leave you with no identity or meaning. And without that, there’s no fire in the belly to strive for your locality.

            I’m fanatical about moderation

            Anthony North

          5. What I hope for
            Is that in this new millenium we begin fostering our pride in locality, without falling in the excesses of nationalism.

            You’re right, the land shapes you and your people as much s the blood. Maybe even more.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          6. localism and economies
            I believe there can be useful pride in local societies, and useful gobalization at the same time. There is plenty of that, just for one example, in football (futbol, soccer) team fandom. As a local, regional, or national community, we have to invite those who move between continents.

            Some of this can also be local foods and drinks. Tequila gets worse the further you are away from Mexico. Rum gets worse the further you are away from the Caribbean. Sausages and bread get worse the further away you are from Germany and Poland. Beer gets worse the further you are away from Germany, Bohemia and maybe Belgium.

            So in the spirit of Adam Smith, there is a huge global market for localized products. This is not the same as nationalism, I think.

            Getting back to my earlier point about uneven income distribution, I don’t think Adam Smith had any comparative information in his time. My point here is simple. Poor people don’t buy anything. A very few rich people don’t buy much either, on the larger scale. So from a purely capitalist view – you want lots of people who buy stuff. You want them to buy stuff where you have good profit margins.
            So the dirt poor people in this world would be much more useful for the filthy rich, if the dirt poor had some more money.

            Of course in a moral view, or in a “socially responsible” view, that would be ok too.

            It is not a zero-sum game.

            —-
            Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

          7. Getting rich by having poor customers.
            Here in Mexico the biggest fortunes were made by focusing on the market of the masses, namely the poorest people. Selling them cheap product of the lowest quality that would wear out or break in a short period of time, therefore forcing them to buy more. Focusing on the richest niche of the market is a risky strategy then. I know for experience because I once tried to sell some furniture I designed that were mde wy the finest materials, but of course nobody bought them.

            Emilio Azcarraga Milmo, who was the former director of Televisa, the largest TV network in Mexico, said it very clearly once about his intentions regarding the quality of their programs: “Si el pueblo quiere mierda, mierda les doy!” (If te people want s**t, I give them s**t). So it’s really funny what happens around here. I once went to this very little and poor “town” near the mountains (back when I was a firm believer in catholicism) and witnesses how in the most humble shack you could find a big TV screen (bigger than the one my parents had!) a VCR and cable (pirate of course). So although hard to imagine, these people do consume and are the most important and powerful market in developing countries. That’s why piracy is so profitable in Mexico.

            PS: Dear Sir, I would like you to take the opportunity to taste some of our beers, you might surprise yourself because there’s more besides Corona -the biggest selling beer brand in the world BTW!! Talk about pride in localism πŸ™‚

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          8. individual companies versus economies
            yes you can make tons of money by selling crappy products to a captive audience, when they cannot get access to anything else. But if you do that, you are limiting your market to that captive audience. Yes it works for as long as you can control the market.

            A good example it the East European economies. They were doing sort of ok, from the point of view of the owners (the state, mostly). From the view of the customers (the average citizen), the system was utter crap, to put it politely. Wait in line for a few hours, and then they had no cheese. Only to fine out that the line for no cheese was across the street, here in your line they had no meat.

            As for the drinks – yes I know that the best Mexican beer can be found only in Mexico. The best German beer can be found only in Germany. Sure, they export it, but beer is not biologically dead, even in bottles or cans. So just trandporting it, shaking it as is unavoidable, changes the biochemistry.

            And finally, don’t call me “Sir”, it makes me feel old πŸ™‚

            —-
            Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

          9. Whatever you say bato.
            SALUD!!! πŸ™‚

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          10. ok small work
            Now I look up “bato”

            and you can look up “tritt”, and “daneben”, and “mitten” and “rein”.

            of course you may know all those things already. I would not put it past you to know those πŸ™‚

            Until another day, I think we have lots of things to talk about, and no reason for hate. It would be nice if the rest of the world were more like this.

            —-
            Wanderer, kommst Du nach Liechtenstein – tritt nicht daneben, tritt mitten rein.

          11. The local
            Good morning everyone,
            Earthling said:

            ‘…I think we have lots of things to talk about, and no reason for hate. It would be nice if the rest of the world were more like this.’

            I share the sentiment fully, and feel it is achieved by using moderation and having a sense of pride in your locality. There’s a trite New Age adage that you can’t love others until you love yourself, but I think there’s something to it, and it works right up to scale, even to countries.
            Once this pride in locality is achieved, then the world can become globalised through co-operation rather than inducement.
            In this way the whole world will learn such important lessons as Yorkshire beer is the best, so there πŸ™‚

            I’m fanatical about moderation (in intake, too)

            Anthony North

  2. Dawkins-bashing
    “Oxytocin: the hormone that helps you understand what others are thinking. I’m guessing Richard Dawkins has a shortage of oxytocin in his system.”

    Has Dawkins-bashing become the new religion here at TDG?

    1. Dawkins Bashing
      [quote=Lee]Has Dawkins-bashing become the new religion here at TDG?[/quote]

      If he gives it out with such gusto, he should be able to take a little.
      πŸ˜‰

      Kind regards,
      Greg
      ——————————————-
      You monkeys only think you’re running things

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Mobile menu - fractal