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News Briefs 11-10-2010

Calling all Alchemists… You’re needed as guinea pigs in the clinical trials of a newly-discovered Elixir of Life.

Thanks Greg and RPJ.

Quote of the Day:

Whenever we start talking about ‘spirituality’, I just want to puke.

PZ Myers to Chris Mooney, at the Council for Secular Humanism Conference in Los Angeles this weekend.

  1. Henry Gee
    One can almost hear the sound of veins popping in the skulls of skeptics everywhere over Henry Gee’s call for open-mindedness regarding the existence of cryptids….

  2. ant holding microchip
    Ants holding microchips is a common thing in China.

    How do you think computers are assembled over there at such low cost? By underpaid factory workers?

  3. Indiana Jones and the Sasquatch of Doom

    Be honest, now: who’d really rather go on an adventure with Indiana Jones than be lectured at by Richard Dawkins?

    DIBS ON THIS QUOTE!!! 😉

  4. animals and the third eye
    I believe like humans animals experience spiritual phenomena but to them it is common place. What humans would require the third eye open to see, they see as everyday life. Animals can not have karma because they can not have sin. If your dog sees God however, I don’t think he/she cares and they probably don’t pray to Him/Her. However, some animals seem to show signs that they are capable of having a religion, such as the elephant or even more so the dolphin.

    Humans usually experience this phenomena during dreams, near death experiences, initiation rituals, and on drugs. Some lemurs in Madagascar chew on millipedes to get high, jaguars and other cats gnaw on leaves which have hallucinatory affects, wolves have initiation ceremonies for their leaders, and I’ve seen hedgehogs eat kerosene and start foaming at the mouth. The real question is not whether or not they experience these things, but do they learn something from it and realize how good it feels. Can they remember a feeling they got and over time turn it into a “feel good” instinct? When we see a horse standing stiff in the middle of a field concentrating on a fixed point for hours, is it meditating or taking a trip into the spirit world. Ancient people believed some animals do go to the other side long before they are dead.

    “Animals are finished and perfect.” – St. John of the Cross

    1. Rubbish…….
      Only humans have souls. Animals are created solely to serve humans, and for no other purpose. To propose that animals can have a spiritual experience, or even experience spirituality is bunk, and a dangerous line of thought.

      1. More human than a human
        [quote=Gwedd]To propose that animals can have a spiritual experience, or even experience spirituality is bunk, and a dangerous line of thought.[/quote]

        Dangerous to deeply-held beliefs at least…

      2. from the Spirit-of-the-Law-Dept.
        [quote=Gwedd]Only humans have souls. Animals are created solely to serve humans, and for no other purpose. To propose that animals can have a spiritual experience, or even experience spirituality is bunk, and a dangerous line of thought.[/quote]

        Don’t you think it possible that animals could have some sense of meaning and, from that, purpose? Perhaps an internal narrative? Perhaps even culture (shared internal narrative)?

      3. Just tell me please
        What makes you so damn certain that animals don’t have souls? I really don’t think anybody can state for certain that they are an authority on this subject.

        Regards. Kathrinn

      4. Maybe, maybe not…
        [quote=Gwedd]Only humans have souls. Animals are created solely to serve humans, and for no other purpose. To propose that animals can have a spiritual experience, or even experience spirituality is bunk, and a dangerous line of thought.[/quote]

        I personally believe that all life has a certain spiritual force within. This is not to say that the common housefly is on the same level as a cat or dog… or that the cat or dog is on the same level as a human.

        But I do lean to the concept that the life-spirit is like a driver behind the animation… while the physical body is nothing more than an advanced host; a bio-machine. One is immortal, the other is not… originating from two separate realms and mated only briefly.

        To this point, I’ve found no conflict between this concept and my faith.

        Thanks 🙂

      5. Really?
        [quote=Gwedd]Only humans have souls. Animals are created solely to serve humans, and for no other purpose.[/quote]

        It’s thoughts like these that fuel and support animal abuse. This is the true dangerous line of thought. It’s a shame you believe such “rubbish,” I pity any animals you’ve ever “owned.”

        1. Aplees & Oranges
          Nice analogy, but completely wrong.

          Animals may not have souls, but they were put here upon this earth to support humans. That doesn’t give us license to abuse them in any way. That doesn’t mean we should treat them as humans, with specific morals and rights.

          I abhor animal abuse in any fashion, but that will NEVER prevent me from hunting them and consuming them, or from using their bone(s) and skin for tools, clothing and/or art.

          I have owned many a good dog, trained them to help me in the hunt, and treated them with great respect. I would beat a man who would beat a dog.

          Still, animals are not humans, they do not have souls nor much more than a base animal instinct.

          I’d say your problem is that from which many suffer: projecting human traits and qualities upon animals after watching too many stupid Disney movies. I’m not at all into book or film burning, but I might well make an excuse for “Bambi”.

          1. Your problem, Gwedd
            I think your problem is that you are making claims for which you have no basis in fact.

            Animals do not need to have human-like traits and feelings attributed to them – they have their own unique ones and no transference is necessary.

            And I don’t watch Disney movies.

            Regards, Kathrinn

          2. A plus and a minus – good night Descartes
            [quote=Gwedd]I abhor animal abuse in any fashion, but that will NEVER prevent me from hunting them and consuming them, or from using their bone(s) and skin for tools, clothing and/or art.
            I would beat a man who would beat a dog.[/quote]

            Here’s the plus.

            [quote=Gwedd]Still, animals are not humans, they do not have souls nor much more than a base animal instinct. I’d say your problem is that from which many suffer: projecting human traits and qualities upon animals after watching too many stupid Disney movies. I’m not at all into book or film burning, but I might well make an excuse for “Bambi”.[/quote]

            Minus the Disney. No I don’t believe there is a single deer out there who cries at the sight of it’s mom being shot in the head. BUT while most animals are completely defined by instinct, many animals of a higher “wisdom,” for lack of a better term, such as dolphins, elephants, ravens, etc., seem to be somewhat capable of “reason.” They are able to contemplate things and solve problems that exist outside of instinct, which they’ve had to learn in an ever changing world. My problem is the “animals as tools” theory. I DO NOT put human traits on animals. A dog cannot cry but it can suffer if you beat it with a stick or leave it outside to starve. To say they don’t have a soul is one thing, but do they suffer, yes their spirit does. Also I hate people who dress their poor beast up as human children or whatever that disgusts me. And i don’t plan or want to convert people out of eating meat, since I do, or hunting.

      6. from the Limitless-Driver-of-the-Machine-Dept.
        [quote=Gwedd]Only humans have souls. Animals are created solely to serve humans, and for no other purpose. To propose that animals can have a spiritual experience, or even experience spirituality is bunk, and a dangerous line of thought.[/quote]

        [quote=Gwedd]projecting human traits and qualities upon animals after watching too many stupid Disney movies.[/quote]

        Perhaps there could be a projection of Gwedd traits upon humans as well?

          1. from the Equality-Equation-Dept.
            [quote=Gwedd]It is obvious that the Ad Hominum is strong in this one……. :)[/quote]

            No attack intended from my end. I was merely trying to act as a mirror; go through your words again and see how and if they can apply to you as well.

    2. spiritual brain regions
      According to the article, the spiritual feelings arise from (relatively) primitive regions of the brain.

      So rather than elevating animals to the spiritual neighbourhood of humans, it lowers spirituality toward the more base instincts.

      That should be a good way to upset most people with any stakes in the debate.

      Aside from that, there is the question of how do the researchers know whether an animal’s state of mind is spiritual. It is hard enough to tell with humans who give you hour-long speeches about it.

      1. Now see…….
        Here is where Science commits an epic fail: It is looking for the soul in the corporeal self. The soul does not come from the brain, nor from anywhere else within the body. It simply exists, and uses the body as a vehicle.

        Science will never discover the soul, nor the source of life if it keeps searching the physical self. That is a fool’s errand. It is like taking a car all to pieces in search of the driver. The driver simply uses the car, and when the car dies, it gets another one. Or walks. Or rides a bike. 🙂

        1. Hmm

          It is like taking a car all to pieces in search of the driver.

          Ok. But what about the possibility of placing a camera inside the car? 😉

          I don’t discount the possibility that what we call the soul could someday be detected with scientific instruments. Every time we say “this can’t be done” sooner or later will be proven wrong.

          Every. Time.

          1. Maybe…….

            I could see that. The trick is what type of device will “see” the soul.

            The devil is always in the details….. 🙂

        2. right, and then…
          Indeed many people are convinced that the soul just exists, and the body just temporarily expresses some aspects of the soul.

          Then in the not too distant future when technology can make an entirely artificial mind that thinks and feels and acts accordingly, the grandkids of the spiritualists will still insist that their soul is entirely different.

          One of the differences between science and religion is that science, over the sages, does actually correct some of its mistakes. Or at least lessens the magnitude of its misinterpretations. Whereas religion – how to say it gently, hmm. Well, religion doesn’t 🙂

          As and aside, within 25 years you can forget about the driver in most cars. That was one of those mistakes that’s going to be ameliorated somewhat.

          1. rom the Ballard-Ain’t-What-it-Used-to-Be-Dept.
            [quote=earthling]
            As and aside, within 25 years you can forget about the driver in most cars. That was one of those mistakes that’s going to be ameliorated somewhat.[/quote]

            So they’ll be taking the souls out of cars? Whatever will they think of next.

          2. right
            That’s right, the cars will drive around the cities empty, to give tourists the ambience of a busy metropolis. They will be calibrated to run over just the right number of dogs and pedestrians to make things predictable for the insurance business.

            We don’t need drivers for that, they are too unreliable.

        3. the right words
          [quote=Gwedd]Science will never discover the soul, nor the source of life if it keeps searching the physical self.[/quote]

          See I can agree with this part, if only you had just said that instead of the above statement. I agree it would be difficult to find out if an animal has spiritual experiences. Now I have to go read Voltaire or I’m going to loose my mind 🙂

          http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18569/18569-h/18569-h.htm#Animals

          1. from the 1000-Lighty-Points-Dept.
            [quote=LastLoup]

            See I can agree with this part, if only you had just said that instead of the above statement. I agree it would be difficult to find out if an animal has spiritual experiences.
            [/quote]

            I think it would involve being able to communicate with them. So, with someone like Koko, we could find out if they have meaning. Or perhaps with the dolphins?

            I read that some crows have been found to have what looks like a culture of sorts, that they seem to pass on knowledge to future generations. That would seem, I guess, that they would be spiritual (they have meaning).

            But yes, how would one find out if a frog was such? Or, for that matter, a human in a persistent vegetative state?

  5. Illin’
    [quote=Kat]Whenever we start talking about ‘spirituality’, I just want to puke.

    PZ Myers to Chris Mooney, at the Council for Secular Humanism Conference in Los Angeles this weekend.[/quote]

    You know, the same thing happens to my daughter when she drinks milk. But she doesn’t tell me I’m an idiot for drinking that stuff…

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