Dear Friends,
I know we try to keep politics out of TDG, but in this case it is simply too important to ignore. Please have a look at these pictures. They are harrowing, they show injured soldiers, injured Iraquis, mutilated children - casualties caused by BOTH sides. I for one will not turn my head away. No matter each of our opinions on why the war began,we owe each and every one of these fellow human beings the honour of not looking away. If it were my brother wounded in uniform, or my child left without a limb after an artillery bombardment....either way, I cannot promise that I would still be unbiased. It is up to those of us who have not yet been through that polarising experience to counsel peace while we still may, before generations of hate rage unstemmed. For the sake of the children. Please.
Regards, C
all a game
Cernig, it's all a game, don't you know that?
No one is really hurt, no one is dead, Allawi said there were no casualties among the civilians.
They are all little robots;you put your little robotic soldiers up against my little robotic people living their lives in their own country and they all fall over and daub paint on themselves.
The pictures can't be true.
For them to be true it would mean we were worse than animals, killing our own kind for the fun of it.
John Donne said that each man's death diminishes all of us.
We are well and truly diminished by what these pictures represent.
I think we are too late to try and stop the hate raging through both sides.
I think I said weeks ago on this forum that the American soldiers must be subjected to extreme propaganda to feel the hate that we see some of them capable of.
Today somewhere I saw a photo of American soldiers standing in a destroyed mosque,with their big boots and guns, and a line asking them to show respect.
The guilty ones have no respect for life, how can you expect them to have respect for someone's religion and culture.
There is one little ray of hope I hold onto.
It is the fact that before the invasion of Iraq, there was the greatest gathering of people around the world for peace.
Somewhere in many peoples' hearts, there is the hope that all this killing will stop.
We can only hold on to that.I know I do.
I know there are many many good people in America and around the world who want to change the way things are.
You are one of them.
Let's look for more like you.
shadows
Hi Shadows, And thanks for
Hi Shadows,
And thanks for those end words.
I too felt disgust at Allawi's staement, flying in the face of all truth. However,I think what disgusts me more than anything else is the way in which so many who have loud opinions on Iraq, the "War" on Terror etc etc are quite happily turning their eyes away from pictures like these, or the executions of Mrs Hassan or some poor anonymous Iraqui. The least we should be able to do is bear witness. To be able to post simply "I looked" and not state a political opinion either way is the least we should each expect of ourselves.
Regards, C
I agree
Hi Cernig,
I agree totally with you.I hear a lot of people saying....don't tell me about it, it upsets me.......
Why?
This is OUR world, these people are our own kin.Christians might remember that Jesus said something about those who harm the least of us harmed him.
When the war in Iraq started after I had spend months of work with my peace group trying to stop it or at least make the world aware,I was devastated and when a picture was shown of an old man carrying his dead grandchild with her leg blown off, I cried.
One of my group said.....tears are no use, DO something.
Well I know that I have done all I could, but I also know that if that happened to me, I would feel better that some unknown person across the world had shed tears for me.
I am absolutely certain that among all the TDG members across the world there are those who feel as we do.
Stop the killing.
I wonder if the TDG members would stand up and let people know that the killing is abhorrent to them, and to us all as a species.
shadows
Good People In America Have No Say
The good people in America (currently) have no say in what is happening. The people directing the dirty deeds to the rest of the world have no concerns about what damage they have or will have done by the time this little game is over - even if it means destroying the United States of America in the process.
Greed, ignorance and arrogance drives these people. They claim they do this in the name of their religion. What kind of religion teaches this? Clearly it must be Satanism!
The only way the good people of America will succeed is to take back their country by properly applied force. That force does not have to be violence. Big business is also in this game. If Americans curtail their spending, big business will feel the pinch.
Ok. Perhaps targetted assasinations might help carry a message. Here's a shopping list - not necessarily in any specific in order:
Those that actually sold America out
* George Bush (or is that Busch?)
* Richard Cheney
The Neo-Crazies
* Elliott Abrams (PNAC)
* Ken Adelman
* Richard Armitage (PNAC)
* John David Ashcroft
* William J. Bennett (PNAC)
* Jeffrey Bergner (PNAC)
* John Bolton (PNAC)
* Paul Bremer Lewis Paul "Jerry" Bremer III
* Shoshana Bryen
* Stephen D. Bryen
* Zbigniew Brzezinski
* Stephen A. Cambone
* Eliot A. Cohen
* Paula J. Dobriansky (PNAC)
* John Doolittle
* Douglas Jay Feith
* David Frum
* Francis Fukuyama (PNAC)
* Frank J. Gaffney, Jr. (PNAC)
* Reuel Marc Gerecht (PNAC)
* Newt Gingrich
* Bruce P. Jackson
* Michael Johns
* Robert Kagan (PNAC)
* Zalmay Khalilzad (PNAC)
* Jeane Kirkpatrick
* Henry Kissinger
* Charles Krauthammer
* Irving Kristol
* William Kristol (PNAC)
* Michael Arthur Ledeen
* Jay Lefkowitz
* I. Lewis Scooter Libby
* Michael H. Mobbs
* Richard N. Perle (PNAC)
* Daniel Pipes
* Norman Podhoretz
* Howard Raines
* Peter W. Rodman (PNAC)
* Karl Rove
* Donald H. Rumsfeld (PNAC)
* Gary J. Schmitt
* William Schneider, Jr. (PNAC)
* Abram N. Shulsky
* Harlan Ullman
* Vin Weber (PNAC)
* Paul Dundes Wolfowitz (PNAC)
* R. James Woolsey, Jr. (PNAC)
* David Wurmser
* Meyrav Wurmser
* Karl Zinsmeister
* Robert B. Zoellick
Many others not listed. If someone could take out the above list, that would be a good start.
Take Back America
Maybe we should run an RFP. There might be some special interest groups out there that would do this for next to nothing.
dear shadows and to all those
dear shadows and to all those others who want to criticize from their comfortable couch:
Until you have seen, felt, experienced first hand what is happening in a small corner of the world called Fallujah, save your critique.
I will never say that american soldiers are infallible, but they are human-just like you. In my six months in Fallujah, my unit (150 men) were attacked almost every other day- usually while doing things like guarding international hospitals, looking for bombs on the highways, or rebuilding schools-not once was an attack started by my men. Respect you say. You have no clue what respect means in Fallujah. Respect for life means nothing to these insurgents and if you can't see that, then you're blind. Its good for people, especially critical people, to get all of the info you can so that you can form an educated opinion-so get oof your ass and go to fallujah and see for yourself what respect for life means.
Fallajuh
Dear Anonymous,
Since you addressed me by name I will answer.
I am sorry from the bottom of my heart that you were obliged to go to Fallujah under the circumstances of war.
Has it occurred to you though that you may feel the same as the insurgents are feeling if your country was invaded by soldiers as Iraq was?
What have the Iraqis done to you or your people?
I know that is an old question, but it is still a good one.
Is it possible for you to think about Vietnam and recall or read what happened there;how many lives were lost, how much country destroyed, how many veterans still suffering from what was a wrong and dirty war?
Well the war that America and the Coalition of the Willing are waging in Iraq is such a war.
Before your country and mine are lost down the rabbit hole of recession, the disgust of the rest of the world,and the loss of many hundreds of thousands of lives, it behoves all of us to do what we can to stop the stupid war.
If you happen to be a friend of AMI please give her our love and tell her we are all praying for her husband and wish him home safe as soon as possible.
The earth and its people are a finite resource;what we have now we will not always have,what we lose we can never replace.
Do your best to save your young men and women from this horrible war instigated by men in suits sitting at desks smoking cigars.
Remember this picture when you hear of someone you know killed or injured in Iraq.
It does not have to be.
Peace and respect,
shadows
dear shadows and to all those
The "insurgents" (I call them, in Reaganesque terms, "freedom fighters") are battling bravely against a barbarian invasion. We are the problem, not the people defending their homes, families and cities from our ruthlessness. I have no respect for bullies and murderers, which is what soldiers are taught to do and to be. That is a fact. We have become everything we claim to loathe and are now reviled, rightly, by the vast majority of the world. Rationalize all you wish, but we will all reap the very bitter fruit of our murderous folly. It is inescapeable.
I want to respond
is there anyway to message someone privately on here?
email addy
Hi Ami,
If you need to correspond with me, then email cernig[at]dailygrail[dot]com. (I've gotta do the [bracket] thing to try to throw of those pesky spambots! Make the obvious substitutions)
Regards, C
Bad person
Well, it’s four beers later and my mind is still reeling after looking at those pictures.
I had wanted to respond only to the two who posted before, but I guess if I’m going to bare my soul it doesn’t matter who reads it. Just don’t persecute me for what I’m about to write because at least I have the gumption to type it.
First- those pictures were horrible. Hell on earth. I could almost smell the blood from here, but that’s war. It’s not pretty. My husband always says if I want to know whats going on over there, watch Black Hawk Down- because for three days and two nights that’s how it was for him in N. (For security purposes we aren’t allowed to say names of places or people, even though the news is allowed) The destruction and carnage is unspeakable and we’ve already had emergency meetings with the chaplains on how to help our spouses when they call and come home to adjust to a “safe/friendly” environment.
Second, I wanted to ask Shadows, Cernig, “Artitfice” and Thereisno their personal opinions about what I’m going to say next. I know you posted that so we could remember the victims of the fighting and honor them. Well, I looked at them. I cried for the troops and the children, but I felt nothing for the dead Iraqi men. Does that make me a monster? My husband’s picture is on that site…bet you didn’t know that. First time in three tours he made the news (Fox news) and I called everyone and we printed a million copies of it. He had to call for back up. Does that make him a monster? Bad? Unethical? “Evil”? “Murderer of innocents?” I didn’t even know for sure he was there. Haven’t heard from him in two weeks…but I saw him! His nose, his eyes and his hands…I’d know that look anywhere…I get it all the time when I say something I shouldn’t!
It’s easy to look at the pictures and from an objective point of view feel the sorrow of stupid humanity killing each other. It’s HARD to look at those pictures and try to see it from an “objective” point of view for me. I look and I think, “that could have been my husband and I’m glad it’s not”. I’m sorry for her husband and I’m sorry for her son and I’m so sorry for their loss…but I’m glad that we got to them before they could get to us. And I wish our troops had a zero causality rate but it’s just a number game…and I don’t know what I’d do if my baby lost. I’d probably be put in an insane asylum…
I wish this fight (and all the fights) never happened, but it doesn’t work like that. Call me cynical but I don’t think we could ever have “peace on earth”. We’re humans. They say it isn’t human nature to have wars…but we still have them. Why is that? (Unless all our world leaders are ALIENS- then that would explain it) (And they very well might be for all we know!) I’m not writing this to start an argument. You peace loving people are pretty smart- since that’s the smartest way to go, but you guys all take this objective view which is IMPOSSIBLE for me to comprehend- let alone feign I share- so I’m stating my view. And I’d wager our paycheck (which isn’t much considering the danger he faces) that if any one of you guys had a husband or wife out there you’d feel the same way as me.
I’m a relatively good person. I don’t lie, cheat, or steal. The only living thing I have killed was a squirrel (and I cried and cried about that). I go out the “outs” (never the “ins”) and I return my shopping cart to the allotted place. I donate more money than I should (I have a hard time telling people “NO”) and I help whomever needs it. I don’t think I’m a bad person and I try to “commune” with the Great Eternal every chance I get…does it make me a bad person to feel glad that the people trying to kill my side died?
(please excuse the typing, I can't remember what beer I'm on now and I'm going to bed)
I'm baaaack
Ok, sorry. just realized I've totally turned into this girl who got on my nerves so bad a few years ago. She was all "her husband this, her husband that" talking "pro- marine this" "pro-marine that", and I can't believe I've turned into THAT. I don't want it to seem like I'm this fanatical marine spouse, militat to the core (ha ha- get the pun?) It's just this topic. I promise we're a normal couple when he's home. I'm proud yes, but I don't mean to come off as this...person that I feel like I'm coming off as. It just makes me mad to hear (or read) you guys "war is bad" "we shouldn't be there"...I have to deal with it, and I feel like saying, you need to deal with it to, but I won't go there.
Just thought I'd try to clear my name a little. Now for real- I'm going to bed.
AMI
Perspective
Hi Ami,
I entirely understand your viewpoint, the young men from the Black Watch Regiment who recently lost their lives are from my hometown area and I know one's father slightly. My point is that people like you or that father are too close; circumstances have made them partial whether they willed it or not. I know you are an intelligent person, and when you say that you felt nothing looking at pictures of dead Iraqui men, thinking only better them than your husband, I feel sure that you realise that an Iraqui wife or mother thinking the same thing about dead Marines is no worse and no better than you.
You are 100% right - we need to deal with it too. It falls to those of us who are not entrapped by our circumstances to look, to not flinch, to at least face this atrocity. This blog is an entreaty to others to do exactly that. Maybe there is nothing that can be done to stop these atrocities from both sides of this horrid conflict, but not looking will ensure that nothing is even tried.
Regards, C
Thank you. I don't like hear
Thank you. I don't like hearing about the Iraqi women glad...but they don't like me being glad either...and if this war wasn't going on we could have been friends...
My husband has worked with the Black Watch Regiment and respects them immesnely, I know he too is sorry for your friends loss.
Ami
Not In Vain
"One of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us."
-Kurt Vonnegut Cold Turkey
bad person....no
Hi AMI, my heart aches for you trying to come to terms with what is your life at present.
Let me explain a couple of things to you without you getting upset.
"I'm glad we got to them before they could get to us."
These people are not trying to get to your husband...he is in their country and they are protecting themselves.If the situation was reversed, you would be defending yourself from invaders of your country too.
Your government has lied to you, not once, but over and over, so continuously and so disgustingly that the American soldiers think they are in Iraq to kill some great Satan.
The people who flew the planes into the WTC were not Iraqis...I'm trying to work out how your government believes they were Saudis considering they did not even turn up on the passenger list.
It takes immense strength of character and will to accept that what you have believed in for so long is a charade.
For those soldiers who survive Iraq, many will be affected by depleted uranium from the weapons, from the soil, the air and the water.Their children may have deformities or may not survive.
Those who do survive will be fodder for a war that is going to continue for many many generations .
You will have to live with the knowledge that your husband contributed to the utter destruction of a country with an ancient culture, whose dictator was assisted to maintain power by your own government.
You are between a rock and a hard place...married to a Marine whom you obviously love very much.
Did you see the Michael Moore movie Fahrenheit 911?
Moore interwiews a woman who has a son in Iraq and who is very gung ho about the war.Then the son is killed, and her attitude changes and she turns on Bush who was responsible for him being there.
It's a hard call AMI,but if you care about the human race,and you care for decency,and you care that America itself is to many millions of people turning into the great Satan itself, then you will see that a call for peace...a return of your soldiers....is where you should be now.
Let me reiterate..........these people are not your enemies.
Your soldiers do not need to be in their country.
This war is costing America 4 billion dollars a month, and the veterans are having their benefits cut, and the poor are getting poorer because there is no money in the bank for pensions etc.
Take a stand..........for your conscience and for common decency.
OH....you call people like me objective........I am no where near being objective. I have no objectivity whatsoever about the hundreds of thousands of people being killed on both sides, knowing that this is only the beginning of something that is going to get so bad that some people will wish they had never been born.
BTW, I pray for your husband's safety.
love and blessings
shadows
More words
Ami, Shadows has said a lot of what I wanted to say, and much better than I could, but I felt I wanted to add a few words.
I was very upset by your comment:
"I cried for the troops and the children, but I felt nothing for the dead Iraqi men."
You see dead Iraqis, lying in their own streets, killed by Americans and you feel nothing. I don't even know how to respond to that.
If someone had said to you that they had seen the dead in New York after 9/11, and not felt anything at all, you would be shocked by such a statement, I am sure - as any of us would.
I am aware that the media in the US is not what I would call an unbiased media. I don’t know if you have heard, but here in the UK, over the course of the last few days, we have seen footage of American soldiers 'murdering' injured Iraqis in Fallujah. The images made me more angry than anything else I have seen for a long time. This is not warfare, it is butchery.
I know not all soldiers are the same, however, the job of the American army is to turn its men into ruthless killers and this process brutalises everyone. I understand that America needs such an army, that it probably has to train men in such ways, but surely it should then be used sparingly and for matters of defence only. With a tool this sharp and deadly America should use restraint and should definitely not go throwing this weapon into places just for the hell of it.
I agree with Shadows that America should not be in Iraq right now. It certainly does not have the right to unleash its hardened killers in civilian areas. Again, I must stress that I am not labelling everyone the same here, but in the UK we have been shown a lot of images of American soldiers in action during the invasion of Iraq that I am sure you are not getting over there.
I am aware that the soldiers are just mere pawns in an awful game, but I don’t doubt for a minute that some individuals delight in the game - I find this sad, but not unexpected.
I am interested to hear your answers to some of Shadows’ comments. My personal belief is that 9/11 happened for one reason alone - because of America’s continued assistance to Israel and its total disregard of the Palestinian peoples.
Therefore, invading Iraq was a separate affair, totally unrelated and carried out for motives other than the so-called ‘war on terror’. I don’t believe Al Qaeda were in Iraq before this war, they are there now simply because the Americans are there.
There are lots of questions I would like to ask concerning your husband but I do not feel I want to go down this route. All I will say is that I would not like to be a Marine at the current time. I would not like to find out years later that I killed innocent people in their home country for nothing more than to satisfy some despot’s desire for a new empire. Let me qualify this by saying that I am very aware that there are some lawless, merciless people in Fallujah (I am not talking about the Americans here, either) that should be brought to justice - but not everyone fighting is a terrorist, some are simply fighting an occupation the whole world knows is wrong. Put simply, I don’t think I could live with myself if I found out that I had been a part of this sham and that innocent men, women and children had died as a result of my actions.
Finally, I hope your family is together again soon and that you can all make sense of this episode.
Artifice
RE: more words
"If someone had said to you that they had seen the dead in New York after 9/11, and not felt anything at all, you would be shocked by such a statement, I am sure - as any of us would."
Thats exactly right. And we had people in other countries celebrating, did you forget that?
"but here in the UK, over the course of the last few days, we have seen footage of American soldiers 'murdering' injured Iraqis in Fallujah."
I saw the footage too, and they say it was a marine...he was a sick individual to murder someone point blank like that and I can't defend him because that disgusts me too. People here claim not to judge him because we don't know what he had to go through those days...and maybe he wasn't mentally stable. They also say it's more humane than keeping him captive and then beheading him on national TV. I'm not sure what I think yet- besides the disgust. I want to read more about the circumstances and hear his side before I decide to condemn him or forgive him.
"I know not all soldiers are the same, however, the job of the American army is to turn its men into ruthless killers and this process brutalises everyone. I understand that America needs such an army, that it probably has to train men in such ways, but surely it should then be used sparingly and for matters of defence only."
There are so many things wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin. If you actually believe the job of the army is to turn its men into ruthless killers... Good lord, they are all still individuals and they are no more a killing machine than I am. (and I've never served) They are taught how to survive in combat zones and yes- how to kill when it's decided (not by them) it needs to be done. They aren't machines...they are humans just like you and I. They go to church (or the temple or mosque) and they pray for forgiveness for the things they had to do. If you believe they are brainwashed killers I'm going to lose the respect I have for you. Thats a cop out to explain why all this killing is going on. Thats such nonsense, I can't believe you said that.
I'm glad you said you realized some soldiers were pawns in this ugly war. There might be some who delight in it like you said, I don't know any though and I wouldn't defend them if I did. i won't argue with your comments on 9-11 because I agree completey. I agree with what you wrote about Iraq and the "war on terror". It's called, "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (Not enduring freedom or war on terror") It's totally unrelated to any terror incident and that makes me mad because we totally don't need to be there. So I agree with you there too.
You wrote:"All I will say is that I would not like to be a Marine at the current time. I would not like to find out years later that I killed innocent people in their home"
Fortunantly they aren't killing that many innocent people in their homes. If they have illegal weapons and resist the questioning, they get taken into custody but most of the time they resist that and draw their weapons against the troops. Thats when the fighting begins. I don't know why you think we are just going door to door killing people. I wouldn't want you to be a marine either because you totally wouldn't cut it and you'd probably risk their lives out there if you were, so I'm glad you aren't. If you want to say that my husband is bad and he murdered all these innocent people then go ahead, but I won't respond anymore to what you write. You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs just as I am.
You wrote:"Put simply, I don’t think I could live with myself if I found out that I had been a part of this sham and that innocent men, women and children had died as a result of my actions."
Well, you never have to put yourself in those shoes so be thankful. my husband has to grapple with the things that have happened over there and I'm here to help him in any way I can. If you can't understand that, than I'm sorry I've wasted our time responding.
Killing people
I am scared of everyone getting killed i have a brother in fallujah right now I am so scared with all my heart that something is going to happen to him I have faith in god. But I feel bad for the family's about their kids getting killed I would never in my life want to here that. never I cry when I see Iraq people dieing and so of our kind the u.s marines or army or anything out there i just want this to be over cathy 18 years old.
any comments contact cathygon
any comments contact cathygonzales2005@yahoo.com please and give me some advice. from the previous saying
My response
You wrote:"Your government has lied to you, not once, but over and over, so continuously and so disgustingly that the American soldiers think they are in Iraq to kill some great Satan." I believe the government has lied and yes it is disgusting, but this is the second time you've mentioned our soldiers there to "kill some great Satan". None of the ones I know are brainwashed to believe that. Thats so absurd. All of the ones I know are only there because they were sent and they fight because they are told to (there are worse penalties involved if you don't fight and most of these soldiers have families back home whom they support- me being just one of those families)
You say:"Let me reiterate..........these people are not your enemies.
Your soldiers do not need to be in their country." I disagree with the enemy part, I was trying to make that clear last night, maybe I didn't do a good job, a bit inebriated on my part- my fault. As long as we are fighting (which I don't agree with) if they take aim on my husband, I count them as my enemy. Now, I agree- we don't need to be there.
You said, "OH....you call people like me objective........I am no where near being objective." yes, I call you objective because you have the pleasure of not knowing the people who have died out there. You mourn for them because you are a wonderful and beautiful person, but their absence doesn't scream at you, and you don't have to miss their jokes and the good feeling they gave you when you were with them I've attended three funerals since July. Two were closed caskets and one was cremated because there wasn't enough left for a casket. I've wept with wives younger than me and their children. I've had too much of this war and I'm ready for it to be over, but I have to real about this. It doesn't matter how much we may want peace. It ain't gonna happen. At least, that's what I think...I'd love to be wrong but after going through what I've been through...I've actually HEARD mortors hit and my husband screm "OH FUCK I GOT-" the line goes dead...a shell exploded 15 meters from the comm van he was talking on and knocked the whole van over on the side. No one was hurt because thank god it was armored...but talk about a sick sound. These people aren't my enemies? How come they know when we are going to be attacked and don't show up for work on base the day one is planned. They take the money we pay them but don't warn us of the impending attack? How come they shirk their duties and bring dirty water and fill sand bags half way and laugh when they are asked to fill them properly? We don't even fire them after the way they act. We keep paying them for not working. after what I've heard, seen, been through and helped other people go through, I don't like these people and I'm entitled to feel that way. I'm not asking you to dislike them, I'm just saying here's my point of view.
And by the way, my husband called around 3 this morning. We got to talk for three minutes. He's ok and will call me again when he gets the chance. So thank you for keeping him in your prayers.
Ami
may I say this?
AMI,may I say this with love and not have you take it the wrong way.
You really are not in a position where you are able to argue a situation like this.
I said before to you....believe what you need to in order to survive.
Support your husband and get him home safe, and when he is, you can discuss it with him and see what his perspective is after having been there.
Emotions clouds our thoughts,and we end up not arguing but defending our positions with our emotions and not our brains.
It has been a learning position for me.I was never able to discuss any of this with my group without screaming hate for the ones waging the war,you might still notice a little of it creeps out occasionally.
But I perservered,I needed strongly for people to be aware of what is happening in the world and I had to do it rationally so they would listen.
I am not saying you are irrational but your pain is like a huge vicious tiger that accompanies you everywhere and lunges at those upon whom your eye falls.
Please ignore any war talk on this forum, it is only going to cause you more pain,and your tiger will attack for you.
Your contribution to other discussions is excellent and valuable, and I remember the beautiful poem about your grandmother.
Can you plant a rose for your husband?
Is the place where you live on the base able to plant roses for their loved ones?
I believe America is now going to have the rose as it's national flower, more power to them.
I am sorry I said that you need to be thinking this or doing that,that is my own tiger raging forth.
Rest easy, love your man, plant a rose,avoid as much war talk as you can, survive for your loved ones and when the time is right you may be able to examine the whole situation with a fresh eye.
Now is not the time.
BTW your husband's rose has a bud on it.Either it knows I love it, or it loves me.
Love and blessings to you both.
shadows
Justification for US actions in Iraq
I am dumbfounded by the ingnorance showing up here. The idea that Iraq did nothing to the USA is abusrd. Please recall Iraqi history under Saddam. Like Hitler, he attempted a land grab and invaded TWO neighboring, soverign nations. Iran in 1980, where hundreds of thousands of people (both Iraqis and Iraninans) were killed, some with chemical weapons. And then again in 1991 when he invaded Kuwait, to expand his empire. Saddam is responsible for directly killing American Soldiers during that conflict as the world community defended a soverign nation. He then ordered an assanation attempt on our Commander-in-Cheif, Bush Senior. On top of that, it is documented that he supported the direct payment of money to families of sucide terriorist bombers targeting Israel. It is in our national security interest to respond to these threats. In a post 9/11 world, is it prudent to assume that the United Nations can contain this kind of mad man? We now know that the oil for food scam was lining Saddam's pockets with $20B, with France, Russia, and China all on the take. After 13 years of sactions and 14 UN resolutions, the time for discussion was over. While the ideology of peace is wonderful in theory, and should be held as a goal, history tells us that mankind (and womankind) tends to slip into physical violence to resolve conflict, especially in the absence of a functioning democracy where reason, order, and freedoms can overcome those tendancies. Unfortnately conflict was inevitable in the cesspool of hate, racism (sunnis vs. the shiites vs, the kurds) that exists in the polluted societies of the middle east. The only difference now compared to a few years ago is that the world is a smaller place. Those who want to act on their hatred of the west now have an easier means of doing so, and information is more widely available around the globe. My hope is that the seeds of freedom and democracy can take hold, and people will realize their potential and become functioning members of a thriving society and economy, replacing their former purpose of religious jihaad and hatred with a job and love of family.
How did I miss you!
OK anonymous,
let's take it one step at a time.
When Iraq and Iran were fighting their long war, I do believe that America was on Iraq's side and supplied them with many weapons, amongst which were chemical weapons.
If American soldiers were killed they should not have been involved in the war.
There has been no proof that Saddam ever supported suicide bombers.
>In a post 911 world is it prudent to assume that the United Nations can contain this kind of mad man?>
What did Saddam have to do with 911?
And what threat could he have been with no WMD, because after all this time not one single WMD has been found...nada,nil,zip.
Paraphrasing your next paragraph..........unfortunately conflict was inevitable in the cesspool of hate and racism that exists in polluted societies.......
You could almost be talking about the racism in America where if you are poor and black you can be sure to find yourself doing the dirty jobs, like fighting wars.
The bit about religious jihad got me.
The only religious jihad going on in Iraq is the one conducted by Bush against those not of his faith.
"God speaks to me" says Bush in all sincerity.
You want to see religious jihad look at what your soldiers are doing in Iraq, to people who never caused them any harm, and for no reason I can see but that they are doing as they are told, and part of this is learned hatred of Muslims.
Actually I blame your bizarre attitude on your bad spelling.
Now next time you want to have a jibe at people anonymously, at least see that your spelling has improved.
shadows
Google Censorship?
UPDATE
The site owner at Fallujah in Pictures writes:
"It has come to my attention that Google deleted "Fallujah in Pictures" from their search engine. It could be an accident or a mistake. (I have not heard back from them yet.) I do know that there are many private individuals who are trying to have this site shut down. I'd like to address them directly: IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Thanks to everyone who linked here or otherwise shown their support. If you believe these pictures should be seen, help make sure that they are.
Sincerely,
Hugh "
Deliberate censorship??????
If so, it is of the same sordid order as our local rag in San Antonio telling it's readers that the recent film of a Marine shooting a wounded Iraqui had been switched off just before the fatal shot. It wasn't. There are dozens of places to view the whole film...so why lie about it?
Regards, C
Patriotic censorship
Yup, that's what it should probably be called.
(dodging from incoming flames :o )
New Blogspot - NewsHog
Hi All,
As regulars will know, I occasionally get worked up about news that isn't exactly within the TDG remit...like this blog. To give myself more room to rant and to be able to post a periodic "News Briefs" of the stories I get worked up about, I have decided to start a new blog over at blogspot. This will make it easier for me to concentrate on TDG stuff for TDG. I hope you will visit NewsHog and have a look.
Thanks, C
great idea
I love it Cernig.
I always felt a little funny about political comments on TDG.Not that it stopped me making them of course.
BTW how do I make a comment on newshog?
I went to the comments and found that I had to log in.I don't have email at present so does that mean I cannot comment?
Thanks
shadows
NewsHog Comments
Oops, sorry Shadows,
If you aren't a member of BlogSpot (with your own blog) then the only way to post a comment is to go to the option on the "post Comment" screen below the username sign in, where it says "post anonymously". Click there, post, and sign it with your usual screename. I'm sure I will figure out who it was :-)
Regards, C
Fallujah
I am absolutely amazed that everybody has to run to websites to see the latest "graphic" pictures to realize what happens in a war. Am I shocked? Hell no! It just goes to show how removed from this stuff American society is, and you know what? That's a good thing. Now you can sit comfortably and discuss the horror which has infiltrated your living room. I would rather have pictures coming from Fallujah instead of New York, Los Angeles etc. Count your blessings that our military has taken the fight to the Middle East.
Taking the fight to the Middle East
With all due respect, and hoping you will not feel insulted, I would say that this statement is quite short sighted.
Being removed from this stuff is what westerners have been for the longest time. This in turn as allowed Western corporations and governments to apply policies that were in the 'interest' of the West and that never were purposed to be win-win.
This 'I don't care 'till its in my backyard' kind of attitude gives our governments all the latitude to screw the world because we think it will favor our 'life style' as individuals, so we look the other way and we cheer in silence.
All of this even if it should cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and if it should strip others from 'their' right to a decent lifestyle by plundering their resources and imposing 'our' needs upon them.
Then we claim the superiority of our ‘Christian’ ethics?
For one, there is no relationship between New York and Iraq except the one that was forged to go to war.
Secondly, war was effectively taken to the Middle East but not 'the fight' per say.
North America now is more than ever susceptible to being targeted on its own turf.
That much should be obvious.
What goes around eventually comes around. That is the law of Karma that is the law of consequences. Did we have a little light in our consciousness, we would not have the governments we do and respect would be in order.
That would be the real 'New world order': Respect (the real thing, not the strategic one or the one forged by fear)
Well said Richard!!!
Richard, that was terrific!
I actually wrote a reply to this person last night and I was very angry so I deleted it.I'm so glad I did.
You have said it all for me.
shadows
War is hell
Thanks for sharing these pictures - it is important to see the reality of war. While peace is the ultimate goal, it does not come without a price. The reality is that the people of the middle east have been suffering under tyranny and carnage for generations, with hate, suffering, and war commonplace. Education, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the ultimate cures for this crisis. Unfortunately those in power would rather keep their people oppressed, so their authority and power remain unchallenged. The west is a convenient enemy, hiding the inadequacies of their own governmental failures (Why are the Palestinians still in refugee camps after 30 years when their oil rich arab neighbors could easily free them from their suffering?). And of course their propoganda is hidden under the veil of Islam. I am saddaned by the destruction and suffering that is occuring in Iraq, yet optimistic about the thousands of Iraqis who are embracing the notion of participating in elections, and the opportunity to have a say in their future for the first time in over 2.5 decades. Let us remember the alternative to what is happening today - life under Saddam where over 500,000 people (Iraqis, Kurds, Iranians, Kuwatis) were brutally tortured, gassed, and murdered. The abundance and freedom of information that is flowing out of Iraq today (including public iternet access, which was banned under Saddam) is a positive sign that things are moving in the right direction.