McKinnon to be extradited

On the 4th of July, Home Secretary John Reid offered the US Government a sacrificial lamb with which to celebrate Independence Day. To my mind this is a particularly perverse decision. On a day that celebrates independence from the tyranny of government, the British Home Secretary provides further confirmation that fascism is alive and well in government, and taking root globally.

Comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

What sick bastards!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know which government is the worst, the UK or the US.
If McKinnon's appeal does not come through for him what do you bet he spends the rest of his life in Guantanamo Bay.
You're right Jameske, fascism lives, and thrives even.
I'm going off to bed to cry myself to sleep over the state of this bloody world we live in.

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

the person that is being extradited, what is he accused of?

Kat's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
13 hours 28 min

It's in Friday's news: Go-ahead for hacker's extradition.

A US request to extradite a British computer hacker accused of the "biggest military hack of all time" has been granted by Home Secretary John Reid.

Gary McKinnon, who is accused of breaking into US government computer networks, has been fighting extradition since his arrest in November 2002.

If you click the link to read the rest of this BBC article, you'll find related past articles too, such as:
UK hackers condemn McKinnon trial.

British hackers say he is being made an example of to serve political ends rather than improve computer security.

The punishment he faces, up to 70 years in jail, was also too harsh a sentence for the crimes he has confessed to.
...
Dr K, another UK hacker interviewed by the BBC News website, questioned why Mr McKinnon had to be extradited to be tried for the crimes for which he has already confessed.

"We have laws in this country to deal with this kind of trans-national data crime," he said, "Gary McKinnon should be tried here under UK law.

"Gary McKinnon should not be extradited - he's just a hacker - not a terrorist - and the UK should resist any attempts to hype up his activities by the US government in order to pillory and crucify him in public in America," he added.

Kat

Paul Collins's picture
Member since:
14 January 2006
Last activity:
3 years 9 weeks

For once I am against you all in your opinon. I firmly believe hi-tech vandals should be punished for their crimes. The world wide web is owned by the US government. The world wide web must be preserved. Gary McKinnon is alleged to have committed a crime, he should be tried. If found guilty, he should be punished for what he did. Such a punishment would be a message to all would be hackers. If the UK does not extradite Gary McKinnon to America for trial, then the US government could easily shut off the world wide web or create an internet embargo on countries that are not on the same page. The US owns the internet. They hired all the foreign scientists who went on to create the internet. If you fund it, you own it. Did the British government fund it? No. Australia? No. Thus the United States has the power and it is their perogative to shut the internet off, punishing us all, let alone those dreadful hackers. Gary McKinnon should be extradited to face trial in the United States. It is not facism to do so. It is policing and proper management of the information super highway. The internet is like the television, or the radio. Every form of communications has a set of rules. Who knows, if we let hackers run wild, we could have some punk break into the US weapons systems and cause universal armageddon. If we have too much freedom and no rules, then we will have universal armageddon. Anybody see Matthew Broderick in WarGames(1983)

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

'If we have too much freedom'.
Where the hell do you come from, that you are worrying about too much freedom?
Oh yes, Canada.
There is no reason McKinnon cannot be tried in the UK.
If America really believed in its allies it would not be demanding extradition but quite happy to see the UK try McKinnon.
It seems to me there is more to the situation and you know what I mean.
There is no way that America will allow someone to hack into their systems and get away with it.
And what have they got to hide anyway.
Wake up Paul and smell the roses.Or in this case, something with a very nasty smell.

shadows

Jameske's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
2 years 9 weeks

For what McKinnon has actually done it is unprecedented for him to be extradited. He only entered weak and poorly defended systems anyway. And since the US has the totally unjust Guantanamo, and has one of the most draconian systems of justice, one could not expect a fair trial to take place, even with assurances that McKinnon would not go to Guantanamo - it is funny governments give assurances (but go to war and commmit thousands to their deaths) but it is us that are bound by law. John Reid, being home secretary, knows this very well, but complied, and rather sickly made the decision on the 4th of July like McKinnon was some sort of present rather than a human being.

Just for comparison - the US government opted out of international justice - presumably because many ex-government officials would end up being tried for war crimes. A very famous war criminal lives in the lap of luxury to this day - Henry Kissinger. He presided over the murder of thousands of innocent cambodians. Don't see any officials in the US administration working tirelessly to bring Kissinger to justice.

On Hackers - they are probably mostly employed by the secret elements of our governments anyway. If McKinnon had have been really good he'd have helped make the software that all these fascists use to monitor the rest of us. To my mind, that McKinnon was turning the tables on them makes him something of a freedom figther - especially since he did no actual harm - nobody died as a result of his hacking, unless someone had all the little green men at Area 51 killed and buried in an unmarked grave so Mckinnon could not tell the world of their existence.

On Fascism - I recommend you read Mussolini on fascism. It makes you realise why no definitions of fascism are ever given on history programs on TV - people would start to realise that we are all under fascist governments. All we ever get really are the Nazis for an example.

Kat's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
13 hours 28 min

>>Gary McKinnon is alleged to have committed a crime, he should be tried. If found guilty, he should be punished for what he did.

I agree that he should be punished. The thing is... The UK arrested him for his crimes in 2002, and he admitted he was guilty. The US didn't seek extradition until 2005. Since he's already been charged and admitted guilt under the UK system of justice, I see no reason for him to stand trial again for the same crimes in the US. As far as I'm concerned, that would not only be double indemnity, but also a waste of US tax-payers' money. Why can't he just serve his prison term in the UK - at the UK's expense, since he's a UK citizen? It's not like the Brits plan to just give him a slap on the hand. They have government computer systems too, after all.

Kat

thefloppy1's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
29 weeks 5 days

I only just read it....Paul, there is a sort of secrete police of the internet......and they are hackers. Not affiliated with anyone in particular. But they have the power to bring their own style of justice at anytime. While their making money and are left alone all is good. But if they feel a need to intervene they do with frightening precision.
I hope they take an interest in this.....it would be good to see their power again. It's been awhile.

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

I think the comment by his lawyers , that he will end up in Gitmo, is just plain silly. As are some other comments about facists.

But to be more serious - if someone hacks into my computer network, I want them delivered to my local courts.

Of course, I should be protecting myself against hackers properly. But if someone figures out the lock on my door, or climbs through my window and then reads my documents, takes my cash and gold watch, that is still unlawful entry and theft. It is no less unlawful because it was easy.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

...that America would do the right thing by McKinnon, that is, charge him with a crime and have him tried in an open court I would support his extradition to the US.
But we all know that this will not happen.He will go to Gitmo for 4 or 5 years while they decide what to charge him with.
There he will be tortured to find out which of their dirty little secrets he might have stumbled upon.

This has nothing to do with breaking into your house and stealing your stuff.
This has to do with the most powerful (pro tem) nation in the world telling the rest of the world what it is going to do and getting away with it.

Look into the American 'justice' system or what passes for one.
There is a black man who has been in jail for 28 years, serving a 100 year sentence for the rape of two girls, one of whom was found to be a virgin at the time of the trial.
There was no evidence for his guilt.NONE.He was selected by the girls in a line-up because he was the only one wearing handcuffs.
That was the only evidence against him, and he has been denied the chance to appeal.
Justice?

I could go on and on without even consulting notes but I won't because it is too upsetting.There are good people in America who are working to save mostly black men on Death Row who are now being proven by DNA evidence to be innocent.

Every person who can be saved from the American justice system should be.
David Hicks waited over 4 years to be charged and in that time was mercilessly tortured.

This is not a third world dictatorship I am talking about here.This is the United States of America,the leader of the 'free world'.

While America continues to run places like Gitmo and has the attitude it has to justice, we should all fight like hell to keep people out of its justice system.

And I don't give a damn who owns the internet.I don't think they do own the internet.How can they when so many people have invested so much money in it from so many other countries?

Wake up you idiots out there.See what this really means to the world, this extradition of Gary McKinnon.
Be very careful what you do in future;think carefully before you pull up that website you want to check out;make sure you do not reply to some of the funny emails we all get these days, or you too might find yourself extradited to the US to face their own particular kind of 'justice'.

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

No shadow, we don't all know that.

You are upset. Most likely you have a reason, but not being by your side, I don't know what it is.

Nevertheless, I am not an idiot, just because I ask questions about your judgement in this particular case.

My parents, and their friends, lived under Nazi government. Quite a few of my friends lived under communist governments. I go to the USA every few weeks.

So you, sitting there in Australia, watching and reading various kinds of news channels, do not have any idea of what you are talking about.

I am sorry, you are a nice person normally. But in your political judgement, you are not very well informed.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

My political judgement is not well informed?

So how is your political judgement well informed?

I am not being personal when I say 'you idiots', it is just a term I use when people seem to live in a fantasy world where the US really is what they tell us they are in all the movies.

We live in dangerous times earthling.Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

you are not well informed, nor are you reasonable. I live in the real world.

Travel a little bit if you can. Go see other countries, other people. Don't judge things from what you see on TV and on the internet.

Go into the real world Shadow.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

A lot!

And the real world?
You don't know me and do not know my history.I have seen more of the real world in my life than you will ever see.

I have worked in places where you would not set your dainty little foot.
I have seen people at their worst and and beyond that.
I have helped the lowest of the low, physically, and dragged them kicking and screaming into some semblance of a normal life.

Don't tell me to go into the real world.

I believe you belong in academia.That's not the real world mate, that's a pretend world.
That's where all the people with retentive brains live, those who think their shit don't stink so they don't have to mix with the down and outs and the poor and the stupid and the drunk and the drugged.

I know academics and could be in their world but refuse to.
I know the real world and have spent half my life tending to those poor bastards who belong to it.

Gary McKinnon is just another one of those poor bastards and you are wishing on him something that is beyond your ability to realise.

What do you do?
Hop on a plane every now and then and fly to the US?
That's the real world?

Sorry mate but it ain't.

If you want to know about the real world I am happy to inform you.
What do you want to know?

Your response to me was insulting, implying that I am a stay at home person who has never lived.
Boy, earthling, have you made an idiot of yourself!

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

Shadow, you are easy to pass judgement.

You are very angry now, obviously. When you are in this kind of mood, you are relentless.

No, I do not accept your judgement. I go by my experience, and that of my family and friends. Not by someone who calls me an idiot at the slightest disagreement.

Switch to decaf.
Stop insulting people.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

This is the end of this game.
I have this thing where I refuse to discuss anything with a person whom I feel does not have the wherewithall to hold up his end of the discussion.

Thanks for calling me relentless though.I like that.

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

It is a bad day for you. I like you in normal discussions. Really.

But this is one of those times when you are just too angry to make any sense. It does not have anything to do with you, or me, being intelligent or stupid.

We will talk about other things, on other topics.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

I am not having a bad day.
I just sat in the sun feeding my parrot honey from a teaspoon.He loves it.Then he wipes his beak on my neck.

Then I made a cake, what I call a bumble cake.It is full of berries and apple.Beeeeuuuatiful.
But you won't get any because you don't deserve it.

I do not understand why you would think I am having a bad day because I disagree with you.
I am hesitant to say this but you are not being sexist are you?
Saying that because I am a woman I have bad days.

There are things in life that annoy me and lack of justice to those people most in need of it is top of the list.
I have spent most of my life speaking up for these people.

I believe Gary McKinnon to be one of those people.He is not a bad person, just unfortunate.
He was young when he did the crime, and he has admitted to it.
What the hell do you want to do with him?
Apart from throwing him to the wolves that is.

There is justice and there is law, and America of late has become very adept at making laws and then breaking them whilst declaring in a loud voice that they are defending themselves from those who would destroy them.
If they stopped making enemies people would not want to destroy them.

I cannot see that 70 years in jail and maybe torture, or positively torture, would be the solution to this situation.

Anyway I said I wasn't playing any more.

I'm off to eat my cake.

shadows

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
3 days 17 hours

everyone has bad days. I didnt even think about you being a woman. That's why I have not been polite.

If I was sexist, I would give you preferential treatment, on account that you are a woman. But as you have seen over the last year or so, I don't do that. I am just as direct to you as to anyone else. It makes no difference to me.

With regard to McKinnon, no they will not torture him. That is where your lack of judgement comes in, you automatically assume these things.

And you cannot get away from the problem, which is that you are biased against the US, by declaring victory in out little debate here.

It does not matter if you or I are more convincing here. Reality is what happens in the world. It is not what we say here, loudly or quietly.

In the immortal words of Franz Beckenbauer: "schaun mer mal".

Go look that up.

Greg's picture
Member since:
30 April 2004
Last activity:
14 min 1 sec

This discussion is going nowhere fast, and the personal insults will not be tolerated here. Let's call it a day please.

Kind regards,
Greg
-------------------------------------------
You monkeys only think you're running things

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

Jesus H Christ earthling, I told you why I am upset.
I'm upset with the state of the law or lack of the law in the US and the UK.
Do you really think it is fine to hold anyone in Guantanamo Bay for years without charges, and subject them to torture?
And I mean anyone!

Well I don't.

Richard wrote an excellent post last week on people forcing democracy on others and what a laughable thing that is.

Maybe it's you who are not politically well informed.

shadows

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

Jameske, do you get Nexus magazine?
I just got Nexus for June-July 2006 and there is an article in it about Gary McKinnon.

What's interesting about the article is that he says more in this article on Nexus than what was reported in the interview we read on the net.
And yet it seems to be the same interview.Does anyone know if it was deliberately edited?

Asked if aliens exist McKinnon says,
' Yes. There is UFO techonology, there's anti-gravity, there's free energy and it's extraterrestrial in origin, and we've captured spacecraft and reverse-engineered it'.

He speaks about the airbrushing of UFOs by NASA but in this interview he also adds...
'But what came onto the screen was amazing.It was a culmination of all my efforts.It was a picture of something that definitely was not man-made.
It was above earth's hemisphere.It kind of looked like a satellite, but it was manufactured by no means I have ever seen before:there were no rivets, no seams;it was like one flawless piece of material.
It was cigar-shaped and had geodesic domes above, below, to the left , the right and both ends of it,and although it was a low resolution picture it was very close up.
This thing was hanging in space, the earth's hemisphere visible below it, and no rivets no seams, none of the stuff associated with normal man-made manufacturing'.

At the end of the interview he hints that whatever happens he has a lot more to tell.
'I can't talk about a lot of stuff that I found.It's just not the right time', he says with a smile.

Now am I imagining that I did not read that in the interview posted on the net?
Because this interview gives a lot of reasons why the Americans want to get their hands on him, and also the very reason they shouldn't.

shadows

Jameske's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
2 years 9 weeks

Sorry, Ihaven't been following this blog for a long time. No I don't get Nexus magazine. I had heard something of McKinnon's claims on TV but not on internet broadcasts or short interviews.

But whether they are true or not it is almost impossible to determine. More to the point, there was an agreement made between US and British Govts. The upshot of which is that the US Govt can have British citizens extradited to US to stand trial WITHOUT providing anything more than suspicion (ie. no evidence) but the British cannot. So, the British Govt. betrayed its own citizens, and the US Govt betrayed its closest ally - the British Govt.

As for UFOs, well, alien craft - how would the public ever get decent evidence of that unless they broke the law en masse and manage to get verifiable evidence together. Hardly likely. We will just have to wait for Claatu.

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
7 years 11 weeks

Yes I know about the sell-out by the British government.Our government here has done the same thing with Hicks.
The US has won its battle to convince the world that we are all in danger of being wiped out by terrorists if we don't immediately sacrifice all our hard won freedoms.

shadows