Velikovsky's Comet Venus
Posted by Robert Soul at 09:50, 12 Mar 2010Immanuel Velikovsky concluded from his extensive interdisciplinary research that the planet Venus was remembered from the time of the dawn of civilization as a brilliant cometary body.
Have we overlooked something? Is it possible images of Comet Venus have been staring us in the face for decades?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00curr...
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23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
From Trevor Palmer -
COMYNS BEAUMONT
Another catastrophist of a later period was the British journalist, COMYNS BEAUMONT, WHO ARGUED IN A 1932 BOOK THAT COMETS WERE PLANETS WHICH HAD BEEN DISPLACED FROM THEIR NATURAL ORBITS. According to Beaumont, cometary heads tended to disintegrate, forming meteors, which usually crashed into the Sun. Some, however, were intercepted by the Earth, with catastrophic consequences. Beaumont saw the widespread loam and gravel deposits of the northern latitudes as being evidence of an impact, associating the event with the Phaeton myth and the floods of both Noah and Deucalion. Since Orosius placed the Deucalion Flood 810 years before the founding of Rome, Beaumont estimated that the impact had occurred around 1560 B.C. [24].
Comyns himself most likely had developed Johan Radloff's theories.
The real problem with this appears to be that we lack the signs of any interaction of the Earth with Venus as a comet.
We have samples of comets, and they do not match the composition of Venus.
What we do have evidence of is the interaction of the Earth with fragments of Comet Encke.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Hi -
While I think that it may have been entirely possible that ancient man observed electrical phenomenon in space, I think that the effects have been overblown by this group, and the sources of the phenomenon confused.
As near as I know, a crustal shift has never happened, and can't, as the forces required are so large that the Earth would fragment. There is no wandering planet Niburu, nor have any of the planets changed their orbits.
(For Niburu as a term for comet, see Bob Kobres's site:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ for hours of free reading)
The source for all of this nonsense seems to have been:
JOHANN RADLOF 1823
Who was a classical scholar who first came up with this nonsense. Phaethon=Planet X. (I received this information from Leroy Ellenberger, the work is that of Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs: http://www.mythopedia.info/radlof.htm.)
Radlof's theory, embodied in a thin booklet printed in Gothic letters and published in 1823, essentially boils down to four strands of theory, all of which recur throughout the entire
subsequent history of catastrophism.
The FIRST IDEA was that of the exploded planet: in 1802, Olbers had proposed that the recently discovered bodies Ceres, Pallas, Juno, and Vesta in the asteroid belt must have been the last remnants of a former giant planet that once orbited between Mars and Jupiter.
In this source planet, Radlof saw the original referent of the myths of Phaethon, Isaiah's 'morning star', Typhon, and others. [DATES SERIOUSLY WRONG.] The link with Phaethon was justified by reference to the following passage from Nonnus, in which Hermes addressed Phaethon as follows:
"Then you will shine in the sky like the Sun God next to Ares,
scattering that thick invisible darkness far away;
a miracle unheard of in the course of the ages"
If Phaethon really stood "next to Ares", Radlof naively argued, he could have been the missing planet, that formerly revolved between Mars and Jupiter.
THE SECOND COMPONENT of Radlof's theory, the mythical death of both Phaethon and Typhon at the hands of Zeus was then interpreted as the disruption of the former planet. In keeping with Nonnus' statement that Zeus discharged a comet towards Typhon, Radlof supposed that THE FORMER PLANET 'PHAETHON' SPLINTERED TO PIECES AFTER COLLISION WITH A COMET:
"Perhaps this displacement happened as the result of a collision with what used to be called a dragon star or a comet"
Unperturbed by Nonnus' late date, Radlof then complained that Nonnus ought to have given more attention to the comet than he actually did:
"The moving power of that enormous water mountain that rose from the sea and moved forth over the Earth is obviously Jupiter's comet, and it is actually surprising that our poet allows him only a marginal role"
The THIRD ELEMENT of Radlof's theory is that the planets were on different orbits than today. Radlof uniquely speculated that THE PLANET VENUS WAS ONE OF THE FRAGMENTS OF THE EXPLODED PLANET, that settled into its present orbit in the immediate aftermath of the explosion, after some close encounters with Mars. These views were motivated by the desire to accommodate Varro's statement regarding Venus' changed appearance and possibly also Phaethon's links to Venus. In defence of the view that Venus had once been a constituent of a bigger planet, Radlof pointed to Venus' 'tiny size'. His bold ideas about the origins of Venus qualify Radlof as possibly the first modern 'planetary catastrophist' on record.
The explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' would also have had repercussions for our own planet. The FOURTH ELEMENT in Radlof's theory was THE TILTING OF THE ROTATIONAL AXIS OF THE EARTH, that
had originally pointed towards the zenith:
"And the Aethiopians may indeed really have turned black on that occasion, because the hot zone ran over their heads when the Earth axis was disrupted by that event."
The tilted position of the Earth's axis with respect to its poles had already led old-Greek researchers to assume that our earthly star had been hurled from its former, straight position by some external body; in fact, Anaxagoras taught that the stars had originally revolved straight in the celestial firmament, so that the pole stood exactly on top of the zenith of the earth. The Earth's point of gravity must have been disrupted by the collisions of the
two disturbed heavenly bodies Hesperus and Phaethon, and especially by the former's change of orbit and all subsequent radical changes in the internal equilibrium equations of the planets in our solar realm, and its former position with respect to the pole had to be altered twice.
FOR THE CONNECTION OF THE TILTING OF THE AXIS TO THE MYTH OF PHAETHON, RADLOF RELIED ON TWO ANCIENT PASSAGES IN WHICH PHAETHON'S FIRE DISTURBED ATLAS, STANDING AT THE POLE OF HEAVEN. THE
PASSAGES IN CASE CAME FROM OVID, FALSELY IDENTIFIED AS HESIOD, AND NONNUS:
"The fire already threatens the pole of heaven
And Atlas can hardly go on to carry the glowing firmament,
When Jupiter - with his lightning hurls the rider from his chariot
and with dreadful fire quenches the all-fire.
With burning hair Phaethon comes down from the high sky
like a star that seems to fall
and is absorbed, far from his home,
by the waves of the great Eridanus
… an entire day went by without sun."
"Even the axis of the sky is twisted by the swirling ether, and the bent Atlas can hardly continue to bear the circling pole of the stars … and all animals of the circle turn inimical towards each other; even the planets clash: Venus clashes with Jupiter, Mars with Saturn; and the Pleiad, thrown of its orbit, approaches Mercury, mixing its cognate light with that of the Pleiades"
Shrinking back from the extraordinary claim of a full-on disruption of all planetary orbits, Radlof hastened to add the following laconic remark to the latter part of Nonnus' quote:
"Whether those disturbances in the solar domain during the fall of that radiant earth star had really been so far-reaching or whether the poet rather painted it in the way it appeared to the eye, easily misled, that may the actual astronomer investigate for himself."
Quite apart from the shifting of the axis, the explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' wreaked more havoc on earth. Ahead of his time, Radlof speculated that the catastrophe caused by the comet impact must have incurred a bundle of disastrous events on earth, including THE FLOOD [of Noah], "great earthquakes" and "eruptions of fire". In a remarkable display of prescience, Radlof envisaged the 'cosmic winter' as a universal deposit of snow in the wake of the event. This prediction was based on Nonnus' report that an endless rain of snow covered the entire earth until the sky, "so that Thessaly's highest pinnacle of rocks and the tops of Parnassus, close to the clouds, swung in the icy flood". And the equivalent of a veil of darkness induced by the fall-out of cosmic debris was Solinus' account of an uninterrupted night holding sway over the earth for nine months during the flood of Ogyges.
Despite these accurate 'predictions', however, and for all its genius, Radlof's work is rather poorly documented by modern standards. No compelling evidence is brought into court at all for the identification of the mythical protagonist with the missing planet in the solar system. A major flaw is the unclarity regarding the dates and the exact number of catastrophes believed
to have happened.
RADLOF CITED CLASSICAL SOURCES DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN AT LEAST FOUR CATASTROPHES – THOSE OF OGYGES, INACHUS, DARDANUS, AND DEUCALION RESPECTIVELY, BESIDE THE FLOOD
OF NOAH AND THE FALL OF PHAETHON – BUT FAILED TO ELUCIDATE HOW MANY OF THESE COULD HAVE BEEN IDENTICAL, and especially to which one the shattering of the planet Phaethon and the fall of Hesperus or Venus would belong. That said, however, Radlof definitely ranks among the pioneers of early catastrophism and may indeed be the first planetary catastrophist in modern scholarship. Immanuel Velikovsky would have done well to credit Radlof as such."
Radlof's nonsense was then picked up on by SAMPSON ARNOLD MACKEY, and passed to Rosicrucian Masons:
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/secret_tea...
From there the crustal shift nonsense was taken up by the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, who passed it to Blavatsky. It was also taken up by Augustus and Alice LePlongeon; Augustus was an insane Mayan scholar who had a peculiar history of Atlantis. As Le Plongeon put it fairly concisely in his 1876 work "Sacred Mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago. Their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India. Free Masonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon": “I will endeavour to show you that the ancient sacred mysteries, the origin of Freemasonry consequently, date back from a period far more remote than the most sanguine students of its history ever imagined. I will try to trace their origin, step by step, to this continent which we inhabit - to America - from where Maya colonists transported their ancient religious rites and ceremonies not only to the banks of the Nile, but to those of the Euphrates, and the shores of the Indian Ocean, not less than 11,500 years ago."
Blavatsky and the LePlongeons met in New York City, where the nonsense was incorporated into "Theosophy", and spread to A.M.O.R.C., but most importantly it was passed on to Lillian V. Bense, of Portland, Oregon, near Mt Shasta, who wrote the best selling book "A Dweller on Two Planets".
Lillian V. Bense's success was picked up on by California con man Baird T. Spaulding, who falsely claimed to have visited India in 1897 and gained mystical wisdom there. His "Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East” (1924) and “India Tour Lessons” (1935-1936) enjoyed considerable successm, until his followers cornered him into taking them to India to meet with the masters.
Spaulding's con collapsed when the masters failed to show up, leaving the way open for two commercial writers, Robert D. Stelle and Howard John Zitko to go into the religion business, which they did by setting up the Lemurian Fellowship. They enjoyed considerable success until money disputes came in the way. Following an investigation of Stelle and Zitko for bond fraud, Stelle took all of Zitko's writing.
The dispute between Stelle and Zitko left the ownership of their work open, and it was stolen by their student Richard Kieninger, who wrote "The Ultimate Frontier". Kieninger's disciple David Hatcher Childress then used the materials Kieninger had gathered to write his books, and entered into a business partnership with him. But Kieninger was thrown out of the community that his followers had built for him (and which he had then sold to them) for seducing their wives and teenage daughters.
David Hatcher Childress (with his half brother John Moss's assistance, and using the technical skills of Harry Osoff) now set up a computerized mailing list using Richard Kieninger's mailing list. Added to the mix was some novel "alternative" physics which had been gathered by Richard and David's former business partner Bill Donovan, who was trying to build a flying saucer to fly from Illinois to Lemuria when it re-emerged from the Pacific in the crustal shift of the year 2000.
Richard Kieninger himself would go on to become involved with the Republic of Texas militia group.
The last time the Earth's crust was supposed to shift was the year 2000. It did not shift then, and it won't shift in 2012. Physics precludes it.
Here is an alternative hypothesis: in the recent past the Earth has been hit by both comets and asteroids, and these impacts killed a lot of people.
Bottom line: In my opinion, what Radlof was trying to make sense of was ancient memories of these impacts.
Finally, the idea that 2012 marks some end time is European, not Mayan. Do you have an automobile accident every time your odometer rolls over?
I suppose in closing this I should mention these folks had and have a really strange ideas about Jesus, who he was, and what he did, and thus it is the source for "The DaVinci Code". As was mentioned by Dan Brown in his testimony in the plagiarism suit. Let's see: Jesus, Masons, Templars, Roman Catholic Church...
Given its lack of a real historical basis, does it matter what fiction an author come up with for his book? Does it matter what fiction a movie maker uses for his disaster film?
Sometimes it does. A soul is a terrible thing to loose.
—
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
6 September 2009
1 year 31 weeks
I am always suspicious of data sources that refer to any of the people involved as "con-men" and such, because it seems to belabour a point that should be clear to the reader from the presented evidence, or maybe just inferred by the reader.
To come out and use denigratory terms/negatively charged words smacks of a polarity that one could suggest is informed by an obvious bias. So it automatically makes me wonder what the "other side" to the story is, so of course, sends me in that direction, and I find almost as well-written evidence and examples of why the "opposing camp" is in the right, and is just being misrepresented!
[Not really so much in THIS particular case as much...]
Oh, and I'm not saying this in particular about YOUR posts E.P.! I always enjoy your posts and find them fascinating. It's just something that struck me from the tone of some of the authors you were quoting/paraphrasing.
I just like my data objective is all!
I enjoy Veliskovsky [spelling in question] as much as the next guy, but then, my fictional literature tastes tend to run towards Burroughs, Poe and Lovecraft and the like, so my mind can concieve of these things as being a possibility already, it's part of my "software" now, as it were, it would be no big surprise, but with that being said, I like to pride myself on my adherence to scientific theory [as much as possible] so I need to see actual emperical evidence of something actually happening NOW, MYSELF, to truly believe anything, and it just hasn't happened.
I've read some of Mr Thornhill's suggestions, but when I brought them up to a friend of mine, his instant response was to dismiss Mr. Thornhill very quickly as "Phffft! Religious cultist!" Since I had no knowledge of Mr. Thornhill's religious affiliations, I didn't know how to respond to this, but in my heart it threw EVERTHING the man said into a different light, now I am deeply suspicious of the man and his methods. Yet, his theories seem quite sound and plausible when I re-read them! [The electric universe model].
I'm told that this kind of stuff is referred to as neuro-linguistic programming, or someting along those lines, and that it is akin to the "fnords" of Mr. Wilson, the power of Lamont Cranston to "cloud men's minds," or, for a modern example a "jedi mind-trick" [yeah, I should have gone with the Frank Herbert reference instead!], and it's almost like a perverse trigger, like instead of actively diverting my attention away from what it is trying to hide/obfusticate, it's a red flag warning that shoots up, like a guy dressed all in black with a balaklava yelling "DON'T NOTICE ME! DON'T NOTICE ME!"
[Once again though E.P., NOT in reference to YOU]
Sorry, long post about not much, but your post DID engage me, so I guess "it's all good?"
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
Plagiarist is one of the nicest things Velikovsky has been called lately! But he's still one of my heroes. I don't care if he was almost completely wrong. (I can at least say that his analysis of the Amarna Tablets is still very much significant.) Velikovsky dared to think big. That's something academics rarely do any more, because of the risk of censure by their "peers".
Robert Schoch has an interesting article in the current issue (Mar/Apr) of Atlantis Rising Magazine called "Independent Thinking in the Academic World". He speaks about his persecution at Boston University (by members of the Archaeology Dept., not Geology). He praises a couple of academics, now deceased, Harvard psychiatrist John E. Mack and astronomer Tom Van Flandern. However, he's apparently hard pressed to find independent thinkers among his own contemporaries. Schoch bemoans about how careful he has to be at academic gatherings not to show too much "interest in either paranormal phenomenon or anomalies of ancient history", and goes on to say, "People who consider it their duty to maintain the status quo often attempt to dismiss ideas and data that counter their limited worldview with overly simplistic, patronizing remarks."
I was until lately unconcerned about 2012, other than wondering what political machinations it might inspire. I now recognize that there is cause to cogitate and even speculate on that date. Most would prefer to emphasize the positive potential of 2012 in terms of renewal and awakening. However, those blessings generally require something traumatic to occur first.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
I was until lately unconcerned about 2012, other than wondering what political machinations it might inspire. I now recognize that there is cause to cogitate and even speculate on that date. Most would prefer to emphasize the positive potential of 2012 in terms of renewal and awakening. However, those blessings generally require something traumatic to occur first.
Charles, while researching my book "Man and Impact in the Americas" I read through most surviving Mayan literature.
The Chilam Balamob predicted a return of the Mayan people to dignity; today's Maya think all this 2012 stuff is gringo craziness. Read this:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0107...
I love this little poem:
"The ship at sea,
now old and without strength to navigate,
be it with two or three masts,
will list and turn over.”
The Priest Xupan Nauat
and this one from about 1712:
“The diviners of birds,
The diviners of stones, (tun)
The diviners of flat stones,
The diviners of jaguars, (balamob)
are weak spirits.
“Sixteen hundred years is the end of their lives,
And three hundred years follow.
And so their lives are ended:
Because they know the Count of Days among them.
“Returned is the month;
Returned is the year;
Returned is the day;
Returned is the night;
Returned is the wind,
And gone again.
“Returned is the blood also:
It has arrived,
And divined,
On the nobles mats,
And on the thrones.
“They have measured to learn the best hours;
They have measured to find the best day;
They have measured there to see the arrival of the best stars in ascendancy;
They have measured to observe the arrival in ascendancy of the best stars:
The best tun altogether.
“And so they form their opinions.” (Ca tun u takbes y al ob.)
Author unknown
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Is that I think that it may be entirely possible that ancient man did see electrical phenomenon - possibly from nearby exploding supernova.
But adopting an impossible planetary physics (the "Saturnist" model, which has been thoroughly proven wrong) and further adopting a hypothesis of our Sun's nuclear reaction which is observably wrong, and then not bothering to carefully date and locate your data, will do nothing to advance our understanding of our past.
The situation parallels Velikovsky and impacts: Velikovsky's taint set back impact research by 40 years, and this current work is likely to set back our understanding of past electrical pheonomenon similarly. And just as the Earth will get hit again by a comet or piece or comet or asteroid (though we're finally so very close to reducing this hazard to zero), we live in an electronic age, and if we get hit by similar electrical phenomenon today...
So that's what bothers me about their work right now. I don't know if they'll ever be able to dig themselves out of the hole they're continuing to work on....
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
I think scientists/academics have made a scapegoat out of Velikovsky. He raised awareness (consciousness, if you will) of "upheavals". He did not hinder science, he stimulated interest in outer space.
With respect to his historical studies, I only wish Velikovsky had gotten the chronology right, or had at least been close. But because he didn't, does that mean he hindered the study of chronology? No, we can't blame him for that either. It is Academia's fault that chronological discussion and theorizing is no longer possible. Academia has slammed the door shut on that (and double bolted it), not Velikovsky.
Regarding the Maya, Europeans were also responsible for destroying much of their cultural memory. It is only appropriate that Europeans now help to recover as much of that lost legacy as possible.
We don't know what destroyed documents/inscriptions might have revealed about "2012". There are at least some hints that a "judgment" was involved. Irrespective, here's how I look at it: The beginning of the Mayan Calendar was synchronized (deliberately it seems) with a catastrophe circa 3114 BC. Thinking esoterically, it makes perfect sense to me that the Maya would also end their calendar at a date of anticipated catastrophe, and whether they explicitly wrote about it or not. And if an event is due to occur in 2012, the severity and exact timing probably still follows a statistical distribution. It would not likely be predictable (a thousand or more years in advance)to an exact "day and hour of its coming" (or even month and year).
And how interesting that the Maya also had a ("false"?) prophet named Balam/Balaam! Coincidence? Probably, but it's worth making a comparison. The Old Testament prophet Balaam was called upon during a time of crisis (read: catastrophe). The ruling elite wanted him to curse the people, but he blessed them instead. The people were pretty much doomed anyway, but it was a nice gesture! It offered some hope of survival for a remnant.
And as long as we're "playing a free association game", here's some deeply esoteric insight ("cult archaeology", you can call it what you will). The leg of the terminally ill Tutankhamun was deliberately crushed in order for him to be identified as the Balaam of his royal generation. (Recall that Balaam had an accident while riding his donkey and badly injured his leg.) Tut had hoped to play the role of mighty Joshua/Horus, not Balaam. Recent archaeology has uncovered evidence of campaigns attributed to him in Nubia and Syria. But it was not to be. His body failed him. Conversely, the legs of a true Joshua/Jesus were not to be broken. This is made clear to us in the Gospel accounts of the dying Jesus (on the cross).
Archaeology cannot tell us these kinds of things. We have to figure them out by other means. And these are means that Academia doesn't recognize. It's the reason that "alternative/pseudo-research" is so important.
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Balaam means jaguar in Maya
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
Yes, and the sem priest (often the crown prince) in Egypt also wore the pelt of a cat! Now you're thinking esoterically!!
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Yep, Chilam Balaam could arguably be translated as Jaguar Priest. People on both sides of the world found a common link with the totemic symbol of the predator feline.
The first god in Mesoamerica was probably the Jaguar. Even though the name given to the first recognized culture in Mexico is Olmecs, this was a name given by the Aztecs, meaning 'people of the rubber'.
I have always thought however that the proper name for this culture would be 'people of the jaguar'.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
Cohen, Choen, Chilam, Hiram, those "priestly architects" definitely got around.
Getting back on topic, the difference between planets and comets seems to have been blurred by the recent discovery of planetoids with eccentric orbits, such as Xenia and Eris. There is a feature article in the current issue of Atlantis Rising about Eris. It's a "woo-woo" article, but does have a nice discussion of the goddess Eris in mythology, whether that has anything to do with astronomy or not. The orbit of Eris is about 560 years according to recent estimations, but it probably doesn't have "planet of crossing" potential.
The "impact data" seems to indicate that there is (or was) something causing trouble (for Earth) on roughly 666 year intervals. I guess if they ever find a planetoid, comet, or whatever with that cycle they'll call it "Phoenix". (There were catastrophes in 207 BC and 454 BC. There was also a big push about 666 years later to set the royal house in order, and which led to the reconquest of Jerusalem. About 666 years after that the American Revolution was fomented.) Again, this is just what seems to be obvious from me as the "casual observer". I am a part-time amateur esoteric/pseudo-historian, not an astronomer/physicist.
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
Here's some esoteric tidbits I scrounged up that could be relevant to the discussion:
- The Phoenix (firebird), associated with Venus and the precessional Venus pentagram, immolates itself and is reborn from its own ashes.
- The Greek philosopher Hipparchus spoke about a 600-year cycle.
- This 600/666-year period was referred to by Babylonians as a "Neros" or "Naros", and was commented upon by Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall.
- The six hundred year cycle is also linked to the birth of religions, such as Islam coming into being 600 years after Christianity.
- The number 666 has further been associated with Emperor Nero, whose name can itself be seen as a play on Neros/Naros.
- Venus has a comet-like tail, and variously thought of as the "veiled lady" (or "female sphinx/bearded female pharaoh", in my opinion). Probably the tail/beard has led some to believe Venus is (or had been) a comet.
Head Symboligist in Charge (at DomainOfMan, for what that's worth)
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Hi Red Pill:
You may enjoy reading this:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0107...
Of course, this essay was much improved for my book.
In the Americas, particularly South America, the jaguar appears to have cometary connotations.
But generally, large cats, whether jaguar or lion, were adopted by the leaders of early human groups as signs of power. While one might consider this in Jungian terms, it works quite well in real terms.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Much obliged. I'll read it ASAP :)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
I'm in the middle of the reading, and I would like to comment on a couple of points:
From the part when you discuss the Zoque (Olmec) culture:
Reading about this, I began to wonder what you think about the famous dance of Los Voladores de Papantla, a ceremony that comes from the Totonaca culture, a precursor to the Mayas:
Secondly:
I don't know if I agree with this. Looking at the archeological evidence in La Venta, one can see that the Corn God, that was the precursor to the Popol Vuh myths, was already a predominant religious element in this culture. The myth of death and rebirth that stems from the corn god —that was also later adopted in the Post-classic ceremonial rituals in honor of the Aztec god Xipe Totec— would suggest that the Zoque relied heavily on maize as the cornerstone of their diet.
Alas, it's so little that we know of this fascinating culture. I have marveled at the massive stone heads exhibited at the national Museum of Anthropology, as well as other enigmatic remnants of that culture —like the strange sculpture called The Wrestler, which depicts racial features slightly resembling a Japanese Sumo wrestler. To think so many archeological sites were destroyed during the oil prospecting of the 1950s and 60s! :(
PS: Further reading:
The archeological evidence suggests that the military technology that gave the advantage to the Teotihuacans and the Toltecs was the atlatl. After they conquered the southeast region of Mexico, the leaders of the Mayan city-states still wore the atlatl (along with the Tlaloc-like "eye-glasses" or anteojeras) as symbols of power. One can still see the importance of the atlatl in the Toltec massive column-sculptures of Los Atlantes, in the city of Tula.
PPS:
Um, actually Texcoco was an ally of Tenochtitlan; along with Tlacopan, they formed the so-called Triple Alliance.
Nezahualcoyotl was one of the kings of Texcoco. A truly remarkable character. A kind of poet/warrior, it is still venerated to this day in Mexican popular culture.
Well, another explanation is that the people deliberately set fire and buried these objects. Kind of like the ceremony of the New Fire celebrated in Mesoamerica every 52 years.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Thanks for the questions, red pill. The whole of that essay was very tenative. I always blame the mistakes in my work on the pathetic state of archaeology in the Americas. With the warning that I have been wrong before, and retain the right to be wrong now an in the future, I'll try to answer your questions a best I can.
I'm in the middle of the reading, and I would like to comment on a couple of points:
From the part when you discuss the Zoque (Olmec) culture:
Reading about this, I began to wonder what you think about the famous dance of Los Voladores de Papantla, a ceremony that comes from the Totonaca culture, a precursor to the Mayas:
I don't the extent of that dance, and I do not know how much of a prescursor Totonac was to Mayan culture.
How the pole in one may relate to the pole in the other is not known.
Secondly:
I don't know if I agree with this. Looking at the archeological evidence in La Venta, one can see that the Corn God, that was the precursor to the Popol Vuh myths, was already a predominant religious element in this culture. The myth of death and rebirth that stems from the corn god —that was also later adopted in the Post-classic ceremonial rituals in honor of the Aztec god Xipe Totec— would suggest that the Zoque relied heavily on maize as the cornerstone of their diet.
This is several thousand years earlier, very early formative. For the dates I was using the pollen studies of the time, which have since been redone. In any case, the problem is the lack of manos and metates when corn first arrives.
Big difference between Olmec (Zoque) at La Venta and Maya in the highlands in the early times. You can see corn in Olmec (Zoque) glyphs as well.
In North America, religions underwent substantial change with the introduction of maize.
Alas, it's so little that we know of this fascinating culture. I have marveled at the massive stone heads exhibited at the national Museum of Anthropology, as well as other enigmatic remnants of that culture —like the strange sculpture called The Wrestler, which depicts racial features slightly resembling a Japanese Sumo wrestler. To think so many archeological sites were destroyed during the oil prospecting of the 1950s and 60s! :(
PS: Further reading:
The archeological evidence suggests that the military technology that gave the advantage to the Teotihuacans and the Toltecs was the atlatl. After they conquered the southeast region of Mexico, the leaders of the Mayan city-states still wore the atlatl (along with the Tlaloc-like "eye-glasses" or anteojeras) as symbols of power. One can still see the importance of the atlatl in the Toltec massive column-sculptures of Los Atlantes, in the city of Tula.
I don't know if you can group the Teotihuacans with the Toltec. I don't think you can.
Atlatl use goes back a long long way, with no one sure how far back. Bows and arrows make a fairly late arrival, and we can see it in the archaeological record with smaller points, particularly in North America.
[/quote]
PPS:
Um, actually Texcoco was an ally of Tenochtitlan; along with Tlacopan, they formed the so-called Triple Alliance.
[/quote]
Only after Tenochtitlan "expanded". That the Spanish used it as a base for their conquest shows how strong that "alliance" was.
Nezahualcoyotl was one of the kings of Texcoco. A truly remarkable character. A kind of poet/warrior, it is still venerated to this day in Mexican popular culture.
[quote=red pill junkie
wrote:Well, another explanation is that the people deliberately set fire and buried these objects. Kind of like the ceremony of the New Fire celebrated in Mesoamerica every 52 years.
Possible but not very likely, in my opinion. If you visited the complex at Key Marco and the objects in Gainesville, you'd see.
There's also a general cultural change in the area following.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Thanks for the responses.
You're right; Teotihuacans shouldn't be confused with the later Toltecs, even though some anthropologists like Enrique Florescano suggest Teotihuacan was the mythical Tula mentioned in the early Nahua myths.
The only way in which they are related is that they inhabited the same geographical region, and they shared a common language (Nahuatl or Nahuatl-based dialects). I would also add that they shared many of the warfare technology.
Bows and arrows were indeed not that common in Mexican warfare; the Aztecs favored the club with sharp flints for example, but maybe that's also related to the symbolical aspect they gave to war.
Well, even if we considered that the Texcocans and Tepanecas were probably 'forced' into a convenient alliance with the Mexica empire, you have to remember that the Conquistadores settled in Tenochtitlan because they were invited by Moctezuma himself —because the poor bastard was still confusing them for gods or emissaries of the God Quetzalcóatl ;)
________
I wonder, have you discussed your investigations with Mexican archeologists?
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Hi red pill -
For more on maize see:
http://www.famsi.org/reports/00071/secti...
http://www.famsi.org/reports/99069/
I've never seen the revolving flute players in any Mayan artwork.
You're right; Teotihuacans shouldn't be confused with the later Toltecs, even though some anthropologists like Enrique Florescano suggest Teotihuacan was the mythical Tula mentioned in the early Nahua myths.
For the Huastecan eyewitness account and history of the Teotihuacanos, see my book.
As far as the Aztec go, I think that mt DNA haplogroup studies are going to clear up who is who, and where they came from.
The only way in which they are related is that they inhabited the same geographical region, and they shared a common language (Nahuatl or Nahuatl-based dialects).
I think that the language family was under dispute. The Toltec "Atlantes" have parallels in Coastal south America
I would also add that they shared many of the warfare technology.
Ah, but did they? See the Codex Borgia, and Annals of the Cakquichiels (spelling? its late)
Well, even if we considered that the Texcocans and Tepanecas were probably 'forced' into a convenient alliance with the Mexica empire, you have to remember that the Conquistadores settled in Tenochtitlan because they were invited by Moctezuma himself —because the poor bastard was still confusing them for gods or emissaries of the God Quetzalcóatl ;)
The Mexica went so far as to destroy all other histories, and impose their own. They engaged in genocide, and they were hated.
I wonder, have you discussed your investigations with Mexican archeologists?
I participate in Aztlan. While Mike Rugieri, the moderator, will allow limited posts on the YD impacts, I still have to contact scholars separately off list to discuss the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami.
The short answer is yes. That essay from long ago was posted to the TAMU site when it was first published, and it is often repeated by Caribbean Island archaeologists.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Now THAT is quite interesting. Could you point me out to reference material, please?
Yes they were. I suppose the Mexica empire would have collapsed eventually, had the Europeans delayed in finding (or rediscovering) the new world.
I don't know if 'genocide' is a correct term, though. After all, they were not interested in decimating subjugated peoples because they needed a constant supply of warrior hearts to quench the thirst of the Sun God, aside from the constant flow of material goods to the Tenochtitlan market. Maybe my understanding of the term is too modern & westernized.
That's good to hear; obviously there are some ideas that take longer to be accepted, but with enough time the influence of cosmic impacts in the cosmogony of the ancient American cultures will be absorbed into the mainstream view :)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Now THAT is quite interesting. Could you point me out to reference material, please?
Tough to do online, as Heyerdahl noted the South American coastal large statue platforms. In the essay, I noted that the fall of one South American people occurs at the same time as the Toltec appear.
I don't know if 'genocide' is a correct term, though.
Yes, when you read the history of Aztec expansion, it is exactly the right term.
That's good to hear; obviously there are some ideas that take longer to be accepted, but with enough time the influence of cosmic impacts in the cosmogony of the ancient American cultures will be absorbed into the mainstream view :)
When you're on the cutting edge, you bleed. Fortunately there's impact craters, impact tsunami deposits, and impactites.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Charles, Balam was the king, not the prophet, who was the Chilam.
There is a big difference in words that sound alike in two languages: "douche" in French means "shower", while "douche" in English means "douche".
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Head symbologist? But when we go to your bbs we find a very heavy emphasis on the Old Testament. This pertains to your religious beliefs, and explains why you go to "esoteric" sources, and why you persist. As you put it:
"Archaeology cannot tell us these kinds of things. We have to figure them out by other means. And these are means that Academia doesn't recognize. It's the reason that "alternative/pseudo-research" is so important."
There is a big difference between could have been and was.
Spiritually, you need "could have beens" that archaeology/academia/physics tells you weren't.
Tecumseh advised to trouble no man about his religion.
On the other hand, if you know that some people are using a religion, but concealing (lying about) their use of it, and all to make money, then...
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
E.P., first of all I'd like to apologize for "losing my religion", so to speak, in the other thread. It is obvious that you have done an enormous amount of quality work. That thread became something of a "perfect storm" for me. I'm a bit of a stoic, and like Venus I'm prone to have a "blow out" when I keep it in for too long. I realize that the chronology debate is more-or-less hopeless, but for some reason it's still "personal" for me.
My site does not promote religion. It's strictly a historical endeavor. Of course it is impossible to separate ancient history from religion, but I am no longer a "religious person", per se. Although I try to be spiritual, obviously there are lapses!
Yes, words in different languages do sound similar. And that provided endless entertainment for ancient royals who were facile in many languages. Ancient royals also changed priestly and kingly hats quite effortlessly. I wouldn't get hung up over Balaam's kingship or priesthood. There is an in-depth study of Balaam on my web site.
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
E.P.,
I started checking out the new site "Cosmic Tusk" that you are promoting (and is promoting you).
The founder of the site describes himself as a political science major and makes the following statement:
"I have never read the Bible and I am not a Creationist. I have, however, come to believe that many of the old stories are true and we need to heed them. I have believed for more than a decade that ET-induced climate catastrophes have happened in the last 13,000 years and demand further investigation and commentary as an issue of public safety — not politics or religion."
http://cosmictusk.com/about-george
That all sounds fairly well and good, but he then goes on to express his rejection of various other things:
"I don’t believe in UFO’s, Chiropractic, Astrology, 2012, and most toxic environmental threats."
I'm not sure why he needed to drag those things into the mix, but it does indicate a tendency to be highly opinionated.
There is also another page on the Cosmic Tusk site that describes the persecution of Catastrophist ideas over the centuries. It is followed by a thread where you get bossy and persecute Velikovsky, which starts to tick off more moderate researchers. The site owner partially backs you up by saying that Cosmic Tusk is intended to be "Velikovsky-Free", but Velikovsky would be temporarily tolerated only while the site gains a following! In that thread you call Velikovsky a plagiarist outright. In this thread you toned that down to say he was "apparently a plagiarist".
http://cosmictusk.com/guest-blog-a-catas...
E.P., this is disturbing and I'm somewhat relieved that I'm not the only one that reacts negatively to your personal style. I do however give the other researchers credit for showing a little more restraint than I did. O.K., I am better prepared now to handle your truth!
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Charles,
I started checking out the new site "Cosmic Tusk" that you are promoting (and is promoting you).
Let's start at the beginning Charles. As far as "promotion" goes, one does not make money passing on traditions. Period.
That's not the only site "promoting" "me", nor the only people. See also:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...
and the reviews here:
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Impact-America...
I also get invitations from organizers to distribute my book at powwows, and when I return to powwows I have owners of "my" book bring their friends to me.
The founder of the site describes himself as a political science major and makes the following statement:
"I have never read the Bible and I am not a Creationist. I have, however, come to believe that many of the old stories are true and we need to heed them. I have believed for more than a decade that ET-induced climate catastrophes have happened in the last 13,000 years and demand further investigation and commentary as an issue of public safety — not politics or religion."
http://cosmictusk.com/about-george
That all sounds fairly well and good, but he then goes on to express his rejection of various other things:
"I don’t believe in UFO’s, Chiropractic, Astrology, 2012, and most toxic environmental threats."
I'm not sure why he needed to drag those things into the mix, but it does indicate a tendency to be highly opinionated.
He doesn't drag those things into the mix. What the Cosmic Tusk is about is impact research, and it doesn't matter whether what your opinions are on religion, chiropractry (I have bebenifted from the services of a friend skilled in ancient pressure point therapy), UFO's (I always enjoy reading the latest here at the Grail), or astrology. But you can't bring in bad impact science
So if you bring in 2012 impact nonsense, then you will be jumped on.
George actually makes his living doing environmental restoration, and has dealt with cleaning up some real toxic messes.
You left out that George owns one of the mammoth tusks peppered by the massive iron asteroid impact in Alaska ca. 35,000 BCE.
Hence the name of the site: "Cosmic Tusk".
You also left out as well George's comment that he is a Daily Grail fan.
There is also another page on the Cosmic Tusk site that describes the persecution of Catastrophist ideas over the centuries. It is followed by a thread where you get bossy and persecute Velikovsky, which starts to tick off more moderate researchers. The site owner partially backs you up by saying that Cosmic Tusk is intended to be "Velikovsky-Free", but Velikovsky would be temporarily tolerated only while the site gains a following! In that thread you call Velikovsky a plagiarist outright. In this thread you toned that down to say he was "apparently a plagiarist".
http://cosmictusk.com/guest-blog-a-catas...
Han had found YD impact strata way back many years ago, and the only people who would even listen to his finds at that time were "Velikovskyites". He knows the old history of this better than I do, but I know the current abuses of people being made with this stuff way better than him.
Han and myself communicated personally via email about this, which is something you didn't see publicly there. By the way, overseas shipping for my book runs $15 now. That's what it cost to ship Han's copy to him.
As far as Velikovsky being a plagarist, join the Velikovsky forum and ask Leroy Ellenberger if Velikovsky was a plagiarist.
E.P., this is disturbing and I'm somewhat relieved that I'm not the only one that reacts negatively to your personal style. I do however give the other researchers credit for showing a little more restraint than I did. O.K., I am better prepared now to handle your truth!
Charles, I tried to point you to a site where others were working on ideas similar to your own, but instead you just kept on referring back to your own site.
The data on ancient chronologies is being improved. Your chronology is way off, in my opinion.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
E.P.,
I don't have a problem with impact data or Indian lore related to the Younger Dryas event. I think it is wonderful. I have a problem with the standard academic chronology and its inability to assess the true relationship between impacts (and other catastrophic events) on more recent human history, particulary from the start of the "Dynastic Period" in Egypt forward. This is the time period I have concentrated on, and all my research indicates that the accepted chronology is "way off". So, because you defend the academic chronology (and abuse the legacy of Velikovsky), there is very little if anything you or your book can offer me personally.
That said, perhaps a more accurate model of the ancient world isn't necessary right now. It doesn't matter as much where humanity has been as where we are going.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
E.P.,
...That said, perhaps a more accurate model of the ancient world isn't necessary right now. It doesn't matter as much where humanity has been as where we are going.
Actually, its vitally important to know what comets and asteroids hit the Earth and mankind, and exactly when and where. Why? Because we will get hit again with similar catastrophic consequences if we don't.
I don't have a problem with impact data or Indian lore related to the Younger Dryas event. I think it is wonderful. I have a problem with the standard academic chronology and its inability to assess the true relationship between impacts (and other catastrophic events) on more recent human history, particulary from the start of the "Dynastic Period" in Egypt forward. This is the time period I have concentrated on, and all my research indicates that the accepted chronology is "way off". So, because you defend the academic chronology (and abuse the legacy of Velikovsky), there is very little if anything you or your book can offer me personally.
Charles, your interest lies in Egypt, and is tied to your religious beliefs, hence you Old Testament emphasis.
What you do not know is exactly how cult archaeology industry was founded, by whom, where and when, and how it operates today.
I do.
For the founding of 1st dynasty Egypt and the role impact played in it, see:
2003 - The Egyptian Book of the Celestial Cow
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...
By the way, the 3,111 BCE date is confirmed by tree ring records.
As are a number of ancient Egyptian dates.
For the best chronology of Egypt, the Ancient Near East, and Old Testament sources, see
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...
For the use of catastrophes in establishing this chronology, see:
1998-2002
On the Joshua impact event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0320...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0325...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0330...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0121...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0212...
1998
On the effects of blast waves
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0710...
1999
The Song Of Ullikummi, a Hurrian account of the Tel Leilan impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0120...
Note on Karen Reiter's "Die Metalle im Alten Orient":
An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0209...
2002
Worknotes On Man In The Ancient Near East And Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0417...
2003
The Egyptian Book of the Celestial Cow
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...
My chronology and beliefs differ from yours. If ancient history did not involve impacts, we could let it go at that. The problem is that mankind needs to know exactly what hit the Earth recently, and where, and when.
In my opinion, if anyone's chronology is off, it is yours. Read Collins, Temple, or Coppens, and give up Schoch and Sitchin.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
E.P.,
I doubt very seriously that Egyptian dates have been genuinely confirmed with tree ring analysis, as there was so little wood in Egypt. As usual, archaeologists are eager to validate their projects within the accepted chronological framework, so they force the data to fit. The same goes with interpretations of astronomical records from ancient times. It's all bogus. The chronology dictates everything, and since it is wrong, everything based upon it is wrong.
You don't even know who Joshua was in a historical/archaelogical sense, nor when he lived. You have no hope of finding him within the framework of the academic chronology, nor correlating his "conquest" with an impact event.
You know nothing of my beliefs, nor of the relationship of my research with that of Sitchin, Velikovsky, Schoch and others. Yet, you persist in making judgments about it! Enough already. I don't need any more of your pathetic advice.
If scientists (with help of various enthusiasts like yourself) can identify most of the impacts and their cycles, I'll be happy with that. No doubt we will know far more a year from now thanks to WISE. Until then, it's best for all of us to be quiet.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
"I doubt very seriously that Egyptian dates have been genuinely confirmed with tree ring analysis, as there was so little wood in Egypt."
Big import item from today's Lebanon. Preserves well in the desert.
As usual, archaeologists are eager to validate their projects within the accepted chronological framework, so they force the data to fit. The same goes with interpretations of astronomical records from ancient times. It's all bogus. The chronology dictates everything, and since it is wrong, everything based upon it is wrong.
As usual, any physical evidence that challenges a belief is dismissed or ignored. And those who have spent decades working with ancient written records know less about them than your self chosen experts. Its all bogus, Charles. Could it possibly be that you are wrong?
You don't even know who Joshua was in a historical/archaelogical sense, nor when he lived. You have no hope of finding him within the framework of the academic chronology, nor correlating his "conquest" with an impact event.
The links I gave you are to contemporary documents refering to an impact event about 1585 BCE.
You know nothing of my beliefs, nor of the relationship of my research with that of Sitchin, Velikovsky, Schoch and others.
But you've told us repeatedly about it yourself, Charles.
Yet, you persist in making judgments about it! Enough already. I don't need any more of your pathetic advice.
Okay. Then simply stop insisting to me that you know what you are talking about.
If scientists (with help of various enthusiasts like yourself) can identify most of the impacts and their cycles, I'll be happy with that. No doubt we will know far more a year from now thanks to WISE. Until then, it's best for all of us to be quiet.
One, I'm not simply an enthusiast. Two, don't tell me to shut up.
One of the reasons WISE is there is because myself and others did not shut up.
I'm so glad to know that you personally will be happy then. You and about 6 billion other people on this planet.
You're welcome.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
The academic chronology essentially makes liars out of everyone, even to some extent dendrologists, because they also have been compelled to come up with a system that supports the existing historical framework. They have had to make tough choices regarding how sets of rings overlap. It is not clear that they have in all cases made the correct choices. Bias creeps in where it is least expected. Nothing involving human beings is totally scientific.
The Peter James group ("Centuries of Darkness") successfully deconstructed and discredited the standard chronology some years ago. Unfortunately, they were not able to establish another chronology in its place, and neither was David Rohl after them. That does not mean that we should give up on it. And if academics have stopped trying, then amateurs such as myself will take up the slack. I have discovered many additional reasons why the standard chronology is tragically and profoundly flawed. I have also played with different scenarios. I have my own "high" and "low" chronologies. Nothing is set in concrete. I have not formally published the results and possibly never will. It is a work in progress, but freely available on the web.
I will continue to protest the academic chronology and experiment with alternative dates as long as I am able. That is what an alternative researcher does. I'm not easily discouraged or I wouldn't have come this far. Congratulations for your own tenacity, but why do you now want to discourage another researcher, especially here at The Daily Grail of all places! Rather hypocritical I would say!
I have interacted with Greg Taylor off-and-on for as long as he has had this site. We started our respective web sites about the same time. I also contributed a feature article that has been one of the most visited pages at The Daily Grail:
http://www.dailygrail.com/Guest-Articles...
You might learn something about Joshua by reading that yourself. But I'm not holding my breath!
Anyway, the two of us clash like a couple of space rocks. Keep doing your thing and I'll keep doing mine.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
The academic chronology essentially makes liars out of everyone, even to some extent dendrologists, because they also have been compelled to come up with a system that supports the existing historical framework. They have had to make tough choices regarding how sets of rings overlap. It is not clear that they have in all cases made the correct choices. Bias creeps in where it is least expected. Nothing involving human beings is totally scientific.
I'm sure that Mike Baillie, Henri Grinselmo Myer, and myself will have a good laugh over your "research".
The Peter James group ("Centuries of Darkness") successfully deconstructed and discredited the standard chronology some years ago. Unfortunately, they were not able to establish another chronology in its place, and neither was David Rohl after them. That does not mean that we should give up on it.
Maybe you should reconsider your decision. If it weren't for the fact that I was uniquely suited to do historical impact research, I would altogether rather have spent my time playing bass and hanging out in bars. But millions of peoples lives were and are at stake, so I can't just walk away.
I like Peter James, if he's the same Peter James the classical scholar I corresponded with many years ago.
And if academics have stopped trying, then amateurs such as myself will take up the slack. I have discovered many additional reasons why the standard chronology is tragically and profoundly flawed. I have also played with different scenarios. I have my own "high" and "low" chronologies. Nothing is set in concrete. I have not formally published the results and possibly never will. It is a work in progress, but freely available on the web.
I don't have that luxury. I had to determine what hit where and when as best that I could.
I will continue to protest the academic chronology and experiment with alternative dates as long as I am able. That is what an alternative researcher does.
You have your definition of "alternative researcher", and I have mine.
I'm not easily discouraged or I wouldn't have come this far. Congratulations for your own tenacity, but why do you now want to discourage another researcher, especially here at The Daily Grail of all places! Rather hypocritical I would say!
Why can't you accept that I just disagree with your chronology, and leave it at that?
I have interacted with Greg Taylor off-and-on for as long as he has had this site. We started our respective web sites about the same time. I also contributed a feature article that has been one of the most visited pages at The Daily Grail:
http://www.dailygrail.com/Guest-Articles...
You might learn something about Joshua by reading that yourself. But I'm not holding my breath!
Charles, you still don't get it. Regardless of who Joshua was, or even if he existed, there are abundant contemporary records of an impact at that time and in that area.
Anyway, the two of us clash like a couple of space rocks. Keep doing your thing and I'll keep doing mine.
Thanks. That's a good truce.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
1 May 2004
1 day 22 hours
I have asked you a couple of questions on another thread that was going but stopped. You have ignored me on two threads now where I have "nicely" asked you something. Instead you seem intent on prooving Charles wrong.
I believe NO ONE can be completely correct in this world of change and strangness.
I admit you have an astounding amount of knowledge but this means little if you can not share it without standing over.
Three levels of intelligents.......infomation, knowledge, wisdom.
The last being the most important.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
I have asked you a couple of questions on another thread that was going but stopped. You have ignored me on two threads now where I have "nicely" asked you something.
My apologies. I did not note your questions; that happens sometimes since my stroke.
I believe NO ONE can be completely correct in this world of change and strangness.
I have been wrong before, and retain the right to be wrong both now and in the future.
I admit you have an astounding amount of knowledge but this means little if you can not share it without standing over.
Three levels of intelligents.......infomation, knowledge, wisdom.
The last being the most important.
The problem is when the data conflicts with theory, whether that theory is that of the "academics", as Charles puts it, or the theory is that of the "cult archaeologists", as I know them.
When you hit a person's income or religious beliefs, then data has little effect.
Wisdom? When you average out deaths by impact, it comes to 1 per minute and a half.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
21 June 2008
1 day 6 hours
This is surely the most arcane and obscure of all comment strings ever! I challenged myself to get through all of it, and I did. I wish I could say I was the wiser for having done so. All I got for the effort was a headache.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Besides Schoch and Sitchin, there are two more "alternative" writers writing on impact events now. I wonder if they even bothered to mention my works and book in their footnotes:
"Written by an American biologist/writer and a Dutch physical chemist/mathematician this book reports on the ten years of work beyond their earlier book, "How the Sungod Reached America." It shows their study of Bronze Age petroglyphs, and stone circle and stone row monuments.
"Each of the 26 chapters is focused on a different site, such as American Stonehenge, Poverty Point, or Passage Graves such as Fourknocks, Karlesby, or Loughcrew. Some chapters focus upon the prehistoric mining of Michigan copper, and its shipment over Trans-Atlantic sailing routes in the form of "copper oxhides", as "blister copper" as shown by the Ulu Burun ship wreck.
"The use of latitudes, encoding ocean sailing routes, are shown in many Megalithic monuments. These findings are supported by the authors' interpretations of Iberic Ocean Pendants, comparisons of Beaker Pottery, a probable Minoan ship petroglyph at Copper Harbor, Michigan and Burrows Cave mapstones.
"The authors present interpretations of the stone rows of Menec, Kerlescan and Kermario at Carnac, Brittany. These sites have always been enigmatic, with no sensible explanations put forth before.
"Similarly, the European sites of Barnenez, Boscawen-un, Lagatjar, and Brodgar are explained for the first time. The huge ten-foot petroglyph-covered stones of Buriz and Serrazes in Galicia and Portugal are reported in the literature for the first time, and interpreted as sailing maps of the Atlantic Ocean.
"The book is organized in a helpful timeline sequence from 4800 to 500 BC. The site of Los Millares illustrates the arrival date of Michigan copper in the Mediterranean. The prehistoric comet impact at 2345 BC is shown as recorded in petroglyphs of Brittany, an event which probably slowed the completion of Stonehenge III in England.
"The book ends with illustrations of Olmec comet figurines which document the terror of the 1200 BC impact period which ended the Bronze Age, followed by the very late Swedish ship monument of Ales Stenar, which documented a late (pre-Roman) voyage to the west around Cape Farvel, Greenland to the New World."
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
10 August 2004
22 hours 15 min
What's the names of the authors and the title of the book, EP?
Just curious - regards, Kathrinn
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Sorry, Kathrinn I though that info was in the blurb
Rocks & Roads
Dr. Reinound M. de Jonge
Jay Stuart Wakefield
Of course, the Andaste Michigan copper trade, and their route to the Atlantic Ocean, are covered in depth in my own book. It was different than the route these gentlemen propose. But they do note that it was ended by the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami.
I have thought that ancient mariners from Europe mainly came to the New England area for large trees to build boats.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
10 August 2004
22 hours 15 min
There were, and still are, a lot of large trees in Europe. I very much doubt that people had to travel all the way to New England to find them.
Regards, Kathrinn
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
8-12 foot diameter hardwoods?
Perhaps some, but where?
One of the reasons for the founding of the colonies in New England was to get wood for the British fleet.
Since ancient Britons were using dugout canoes, and engaging in Atlantic coastal trade (and fishing), perhaps a similar need drove them to the New England, following deforestation - but this is highly speculative, and those who knew (the Native Americans tradition keepers of the NE coastal peoples) died during colonization.
It will remain hypothetical until something really firm shows up.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Spain had such a stock of long trees.
They were unavailable to England, for obvious reasons.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
1 day 22 hours
sunk all those trees after the Spanish used them to build the Armada.
Actually, thats incorrect, Spain only lost 3 ships. But over the years they did build a lot of ships which used a lot of wood.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Spain had such a stock of long trees.
They were unavailable to England, for obvious reasons.
Is your "obvious reason" deforestation?
For ocean going dugouts, its not simply "long trees" needed for masts.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
Deforestation happened afterwards, when people were really into the ship-building business because they had figured out a good excuse (America).
But, I understand your argument. You're talking about trees large enough to carve a big dugout canoe. I started talking about something else, and complete time-frame —to when they were such things as 'Spain' or 'England'
Speaking as a complete layman, seems like a dugout canoe takes a long time to make, and a lot of manpower. You'd think people would favored alternative solutions, like canoes mad with water-proof skins or a raft made with bundled branches. Obviously, those aren't the kind of materials that last a long enough time to leave out any archeological evidence.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
2 weeks 6 hours
The sparseness of evidence of naval activity of some interesting ages is made worse by the fact that their coast lines have been seriously under water for a few thousand years. The entire coast line from Africa to Australia and Japan has been gone for a long time.
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We are the cat.
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Speaking as a complete layman, seems like a dugout canoe takes a long time to make, and a lot of manpower.
Actually, dugouts were made using fire, and then the rough form smoothed. Surprisingly little labor.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
12 April 2007
3 hours 17 min
It may be surprisingly little labor, but just how little?
How much time and effort would it take to build a dugout canoe for 10 people and supplies, for example? I would hope some university has already undertaken some kind of practical test on this matter —maybe a competition among grad students?
I still remember my classics. In Defoe's Robinson Crusoe, Robinson tries to build the biggest dugout canoe ever made; it takes him a whole month or so, but then he realizes he didn't plan things carefully enough —he built it too far away from the shore, and there was no way he could drag it to the sea.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
10 August 2004
22 hours 15 min
The Vikings built them, so did the Phoenecians - they didn't have to travel to the New World for their timber. The Polynesians built magnificent ocean-going voyaging canoes - they didn't have to go to the New World either.
Regards, Kathrinn
23 October 2006
7 weeks 5 days
Hi ya'll -
What I was trying to talk about here was oceangoing dugouts, not plank built ships, nor catamarans.
PS - An image of the Inka's catamaran is on page 297 of my book.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
2 weeks 6 hours
I haven't studied archaelogical evidence for this. It seems to me that a catamaran could well start as a poor man's raft. Or a variation of an outrigger dugout. These things have likely been invented more than once.
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We are the cat.
23 October 2009
16 weeks 5 days
We seem to have lost sight of the Velikovsky planetary forest on account of the saplings.
Interesting article featured today at The (One and Only) Daily Grail:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20...
Was Velikovsky really so lost in the woods? Is there not reason to think that Venus was the product of a cosmic collision, and came into existance (in its present orbit) due to the "sacrifice" of another "god" (planet) from impact. This did not likely occur in recent geological times, but certainly possible in the age of Neptune's speculated adventures (see the link above). There is a little discussion of this going on right now, right here:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index....