By 2012, there will have been massive changes. In fact, the world as we know it now will have ceased to exist. Science and Economics will have become the dominate determining forces in society. But, not economics as we know it today! Instead, an Economic system designed to maintain a stable economic enviornment with government functioning in an oversight capacity as referee.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
Posted by Carol_Noble on 24 Sep 2008 at about 13:52.
"I thought we already had governments functioning in an oversight capacity as referee! "
That was meant slightly tongue in cheek but in principle it has some truth within it. As none of the western "democratic" governments actually own their currency their role is more of an overseer rather than owner. That is why so much has been lost in the gambling centres, sorry Trading Centres!
Whatever the rights and wrongs about the year 2012 being the year of the end of the world as we know it (socially) there does seem to be a great haste to get things done quickly, as if there is a secret deadline somewhere that a few know has to be met but who have failed to tell the rest of us!
As for science, there are so many black projects taking place in many countries that science must be a great deal farther advanced than is publicly acknowledged, so yes, we may seen what seems to be dramatic changes in scientific knowledge, but it will not really be new, only lots of scientific knowledge known for years secretly and now brought into the open.
Posted by earthling on 28 Sep 2008 at about 17:46.
I don't see the various speculative bubbles and their occasional collapse as being related to our current system. And to stay on topic, I don't see 2012 as being particularly critical in time for these things.
Speculation and its excesses have been around since people started making promises they couldn't keep. A new system is unlikely to help, simply because all old systems have failed.
Meanwhile new bubbles are growing. China's run on commodities, China's run on imported technologies. Many African countries' reliance on foreign gifts for their food (!) supply.
Africa will fail again, and their leaders will blame the rest of the world from their exile in Europe, spending their stolen money, while the people they supposedly love so much are starving, again. Gulf area states building up new infrastructure to entertain super-rich tourists.
What will China do when they run out of technology to buy or steal? They are not importing the talent that invented those things. Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought? Can you set up such a culture in a few decades? Europe and the US have it, and the US has been importing talent and ambition for 200 years.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Posted by red pill junkie on 28 Sep 2008 at about 18:03.
Quote:
Can you set up such a culture in a few decades?
I think you can. the first government to do it was Japan, after that other countries managed to do it in even less time, like South Korea, and now India where they've realised the most important renewable resource they have is an educated population. So now Indians prefer to stay in their own country instead of going overseas to America.
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Posted by earthling on 28 Sep 2008 at about 18:23.
It is a start. But the educated and ambitious individuals are not enough. Their new ideas have to be accepted and supported by those around them. It is too early to tell if that works in India. Incidentally, none of the Indians that I know want to be back there, including the ones who went back.
An important question is, how long does it take? Sure, India and Korea have made a lot of progress, but from an abysmally low level. Can China in particular keep this going while keeping their authoritarian society, and what happens if they can't? Another bubble bursting? I think that this is a serious risk.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
China does run on exporting commodities...and everything else for that matter. When the time comes when China can no longer export cheaply like it has for the last 20 years what will happen?
Quote:
"What will China do when they run out of technology to buy or steal? They are not importing the talent that invented those things. Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought? Can you set up such a culture in a few decades? Europe and the US have it, and the US has been importing talent and ambition for 200 years."
The Chinese culture will swing over to be more like the west - more American in fact. China does not need 200 years to do that - 40~60 years is more than enough. Don't agree? Just look at Japan.
Technology - people travel around the world and communicate like people 60 years ago could not have imagined - and this influence changes the culture.
It took the US +200 years to develop because that's how long it takes with no technology to help it along. (Doh!)
Need more? Look back 60 years at the US / western "culture" compared to today...DAMN!!! How could people live like that? Eewwwww!
Over time China will develop and become more homogeneous like the US and Europe. Outside of Shanghai (China's most "western" city) China is still good ol' China - smelly toilets, poopy hands and traditional thinking.
Quote:
"Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought?"
Chinese value money and will do just about anything to get it therefore Chinese took to Capitalism like Greenpeace to a Japanese Whaling Research vessel. Chinese are now learning that more business, so more money, comes from better service. The follow on is that Chinese people are getting used to other Chinese people being more helpful and friendly.
Having a better job means more money and getting a better job means getting a better education. First and foremost with Chinese is going to university and getting the highest degree possible. It is true that today the emphasis is on getting that piece of paper signifying a degree rather than actually learning anything. So much so there is a common Chinese saying "High score low ability". This is changing however as more competition in the work place means a that piece of paper must be backed up with ability.
Chinese are slowly changing in their thinking and how they are living and this means their culture is changing. Change happens quickly in the cities and competition drives it towards the countryside - just like every other "modern western culture".
Posted by earthling on 23 Oct 2008 at about 06:30.
Indeed the learning cycles are getting faster. The first ones that we don't even remember were quite slow. Infiltrations by people or peoples with different ways of thinking.
In the 1700s or so, rulers knew that they were doing this, importing intellectual groups. Now some governments could know not just that this works, but also have a grasp of how this works.
I still am a little sceptical about the purely monetary motivation. That works for a large scale movement. But does it work for the small sparks of invention that sustain this thing?
Probably, if you just let people think for a while, some of these sparks will happen. I just hope they won't be drowned out this time, where ever they come from. We need newer and better things, we are slowing down.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
I still am a little sceptical about the purely monetary motivation. That works for a large scale movement. But does it work for the small sparks of invention that sustain this thing?
Two questions for you.
1/ Have you ever flown on an Amercian owned airline?
2/ If you did you ever have a look at "Skymall" in the seat pocket?
No?
Why not check out Skymall and perhaps you might re-think your comment above. :)
Posted by earthling on 23 Oct 2008 at about 14:03.
Of course I have been on more of these flights that I care to remember, and looked at these ads out of boredom, Never bought anything, but apparently some people do :)
What I meant by government functioning as a referee is government functioning as a referee in a more defined manner. So far, government has functioned in a helter skelter manner with the emphasis being placed on saving their own asses, and winning the next election. I mean in a clearly defined manner that will actually be constructive, and actually help the economy. But, I'm dreaming! Maybe, I actually do have illogical thoughts, and dreams.:)
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
Posted by earthling on 24 Sep 2008 at about 15:01.
I don't expect any drastic changes, after all 2012 is only a little over 3 years in the future. However, some long term trends will have reversed, or become irrelevant. By 2012, the demand for oil in the western economies will have shifted from long-term increasing to long-term decreasing.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Posted by red pill junkie on 24 Sep 2008 at about 15:59.
Let's think about that: Let's imagine that by 2012 25% of all automobiles will run on other energy source other than gasoline.
Can we imagine what kind of global repercussions that single, almost trivial event would have? On the OPEC countries for instance? On Venezuela, Iran, China & Russia?
10 years ago the Internet was barely starting, and now look at us :-)
Now, one thing I didn't write in the other comments thread, is that I've read in some magazines that some experts in Indian studies have talked to several shamans and tribal leaders of indian communities in Latin America, and these people are certain something big is going to happen in 2012. Maybe it is a reinforcement of a recently modern meme; kind of a contamination being the result of New Age types interacting with these cultures. But still... ;-)
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Let's imagine that by 2012 25% of all automobiles will run on other energy source other than gasoline.
Perhaps by 2020 but not in three years. I know this is not your point...but that won't stop me. :)
The US leads the world automobiles and Americans are way too "stuck in the mud" to change anything! LOL! It has been about 30 years since the US was to convert to the metric system - and still they haven't. Fuel economic diesel autos won't sell in the US because Americans think diesel is for trucks and the cost for diesel is higher anyway.
Business 101. Electric cars take off - just plug them in for a overnight charge. Lets see how expensive electricity becomes... Ok, we move over to solar cells and thumb our noses at the power company, Damn, solar cells got really expensive. In fact so did batteries, plastic and everything needed for alternative energy - why?
Supply and demand. The demand sets the price - the higher it is the higher the price.
Now to your point - OPEC getting narky about alternative energy. Even if they lose 25% of cars - who cares? The other 75% will still need oil as well as aircraft and they will adjust their output accordingly. Also, don't forget China is taking off in the car buyer market so by 2012 even if there are 25% less oil using cars in the west China will take up the slack and then some.
Oh, by the way China and Russia are not OPEC countries. They may produce oil like the US but they are not a member of the trading block. However when OPEC drives the price of OIL up all other oil producers smile all the way to the bank and do little to change the price.
Peak OIL? Oh yeah...right (sarcasm)
Saudi Arabia is at 70% of what it can produce and Iraq is hardly a trickle and it seems that Arctic oil will be fought over on who has rights to get it.
Posted by red pill junkie on 25 Sep 2008 at about 04:25.
Good insight as always, thiz_ho. Yeah, my 25% estimate is too high on a global scale. Maybe in some European countries though? :)
I'm kind of busy now, preparing the news briefs and all, but let's consider the possibility that by from the middle of the next decade gasoline cars will start to be looked at like buggy carts pulled by horses were seen in 1910s. Nothing has inffluenced the design of cities like automobiles have done it during the XXth century.
We might not recognize the cities of the next 25 years; and maybe that change will be quicker than what we expect.
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Posted by earthling on 25 Sep 2008 at about 12:37.
A significant percentage of the petroleum is used for trucks in commercial transportation, about 30% in the US and Canada. In these countries, very little is used for electricity generation. This is quite different in other places.
Why do the trucks matter? Because it is easier to start converting them to other fuels. Apart from technical reasons (diesel engines burn almost anything), economic and legal forces are more effective on commercial users. That is why this trend will start in the US.
Anyway, for 2012 I don't see this having significant effect, other than that people will see the trend. Of course in the long term the changes will be significant, and some of the results will surprise us.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Posted by earthling on 25 Sep 2008 at about 15:25.
For trucks and other things with similar engines, any kind of combustible gas will do. Natural gas, coking gas (made from coal), methane from garbage, you name it.
For airplanes, the weight penalty and reduced tank capacity is a problem. They will probably use petroleum for the time being.
Big ships are good candidates for nuclear, there is some good experience with this technology. If it is done right of course, which eliminates Russia as a technology source.
On the lighter side, the Hummer crowd would go for a nuclear powered SUV, don't you think?
PS: the hafnium stuff could help, I was just talking about traditional nuclear.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Zeppelins or Zeplines were the transport of the future in a comedy album "How Time Flys" released in 1973 by David Ossman of The Firesign Theatre.
I am a big fan of Firesign Theatre - have you heard of them? One of my favourite albums is "Everything You Know is Wrong" all about the aliens among us, the secret government training film of what to do when meeting an alien - look away!
And dogs are really aliens (from the dog star of course). "He's been there...and you probably don't even know where you are." Dr. Cox, commenting on a dog whose ancestors (he claims) came from outer space millions of years ago to rule the Earth.
There is Nino Savatte, the psychic mind-bender (not spoons).
And "Gary the Seeker", a well-meaning if annoying member of a group of New Age experimentalists who travel on what Gary describes as "The Heavenly Bus".
LPG (propane) has lower energy density of Petrol (Gasoline) therefore more of it must be used. It is even worse for Natural Gas.
The difference is in the chemical formula - Hydrocarbons. Methane or natural gas is CH4 - that is one atom of carbon and four atoms of Hydrogen - propane by comparison is C3H8.
It is the burning of hydrogen which producers energy and water (H20) is the result. The carbon burned becomes CO2 or CO. So as more Natural Gas or LPG is required to get the same energy output as petrol so there is a corresponding increase in Carbon. (Only by burning hydrogen is there no carbon...however...BOOM!)
LPG is best suited for such as cars and small vans which normally run on petrol. LPG energy density is 65% compared to diesel and about 75% compared to petrol.
That's all we need...Atomic Hummers! LOL! :)
I can't see atomic energy for container ships though... do you know HOW many container ships there are? Lots! And that is a LOT of enriched uranium everywhere...you know the other use for enriched urainium, right? (BOOM!)
Yep...no easy solution is there? That is until we get ZPMs!
Posted by earthling on 25 Sep 2008 at about 18:49.
Actually my prediction was about petroleum demand, not about carbon output. Certainly the CO2 output is the same for any fossil source. The burning of C into CO2 produces energy as well, not just the H.
In any case, Pickens has a point, even though it may not be what he intends: we can look for indirect substituion of energy sources. What he wants to do is move natural gas from supporting electricity generation (a big usage of gas in the US) to transportation. The lack of electricity generation is supposed to be compensated by wind energy on a massive scale.
Whether this particular substitution works is a valid question. But we should look for other, indirect substitution. Personally I don't like hybrid cars, from an engineering point of view. They add more steps of energy conversion, and the batteries will be toxic and dangerous. Lithium-based batteries burn very happily.
The dangers of hydrogen explosions are exaggerated. It is no worse than gasoline, and dissipates much more quickly. The Hindenburg was painted with rocket fuel, which didn't really slow down the fire very much. Also, quite a few passengers survived the crash and the fire.
About the energy density, yes gasoline is better than the various gases. But this is not a major concern for big vehicles, hence starting with trucks and buses is the easiest.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Not knowing a whole lot about this matter, but instead listening to people who do. I've heard many say that when this time comes, the earth shall tilt on its own axis. With in a few days or a couple of weeks. So Dec 21st is a start to the end. Scholars say as the earth shifts, our own gravitaional pull will cause major caos to our ice caps, jet streams, and oceanic currents. thus causing major hurricanes, volcanic erruptions, and world wide flooding. All in all very plausible since we have proven that the earth does not rotate in a single circular motion, but more of a wobble. I just trying to figure out how the myans knew this. My theory is that the stars they saw at night which helped make up their calender, would all vanish from site. Meaning since they no longer can see their gods in the sky then to them they will no longer be supported by the gods bringings of fortune and shall all pay the price in misfortune. just a theory, anyways any thoughts?
...the solar system is currently crossing a 'hole' in the galaxy which leads directly to the galactic centre. The crossing began in 1998 and will end in 2026 when we reach the shelter of the starfields on the other side of the 'hole'.
2012 is the time we reach the mid-point.
The galactic centre is known to (kind-of) sneeze occasionally. If this happens whilst we are unprotected from whatever effect is thrown in our direction it could cause massive changes to our planet.
Posted by thefloppy1 on 27 Dec 2008 at about 04:24.
hi Kathrinn, thanks so much for your hospitality in August. I've been keeping pretty quiet these days for reasons you know of.....anyway, projectcamelot web site has a link to a great thread that explains the whole deal in great detail. Well worth the read. It is a large read so you may wish to save after it has loaded.
Chemtrails continue in this area on a regular basis. I notice the more frequent times are when they drift towards Brisbane.....usually followed by an out-break of chest infection and hacking cough. Not by me though. Have a great collection of chemtrail pictures now.
Back to the thread.......I do believe that the Galactic centre has much to do with 2012. But it will be our own sun that causes the problems as it obsorbs all the cosmic dust that will enter our solar system when the Heliopause is breached by the outflow of Gamma Rays from the Galactic centre.Already there is a great hole forming in our Magnetosphere and this alone will have dire consequences on us and all living organisms. All the information is out there when you look hard for it. NASA has the info on the Magnetosphere with diagrams.
Hope your Christmas break has been hassle free. I had another grandson 7 weeks ago so was cool to catch up with them as I took my two younger one's home. The X just had a little girl so that was interesting as well.
Great to pop into the Grail now and again, HAPPY NEW YEAR to Greg, Kat and all others who know me through the years.
Happy New Year Kathrinn and thanks ever so much for everything.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
Posted by FirstBorn on 29 Sep 2008 at about 04:25.
Hello,
The end of the world and all the talk is about gas...no wonder those oilcompanies and their governmental cronies don't want any change..keep them dummies on edge and with their wallets open.
The end of the world as we know it, the current financial crises maybe averted temporarily, with some more hot air or virtual money..compared to the real CDO problems, 700 billion is just a drop in an ocean of created debt in order to get them bonusses...blame it on the suckers that took out a morgage they couldnt pay...such an uninformed outrage..No the financial system will crash completely...good thing too, as the value of assets has completely overshadowed the work of real value..its back to basics..
Now its still 4 years before the Mayan end date comes in sight...it could be a little sooner or later...these passed years i've read so many snippets of ideas..sure, the shamen say so..why wouldnt they...more disturbing are the reports that filter thru about black ops that encountered timetravel bumps around that date...i note too that UK and USA government have been acting as if there was no tomorrow to worry about..no financial discipline or big infrastructure investments , the London olympics being the last big project/gasp of the elite that has been bleeding off this world. They know it, and know not what to do, some will bury themselves deep underground, btw another technology thats been kept from the public domain.
So what will happen ? The best ive read is a dimensional shift..its already underway in our galaxy but hasn't reached us yet, nobody needs to be killed or suicide allthough the the latter will undoubtely happen. Those deeply embedded in the material world (like the elite) seem to think escaping this world will help, but obviously it won't. Who knows, some alien harvesters might drop by to extend their slave/foodstock..just hop on the bus and we'll set you free..
It should be alright, though i hate to think about what those deranged black opps still have in stock, their souls must have been deeply blackened over the years, and forgiveness will look unobtainable to them..will they burn this planet..all bets are off on that one.
This world has so many problems, cynical exploitation and (mindless) violence, unbelievable inequities. i wonder how the hell it's working at all. Why do we humans accept this crap ? Are we really so engaged in the ratrace that we don't see how we're being toyed with, right from the start when stepped out of nature (the garden of eden if you will) and stepped into the world of materialism. Now some might say that's our choice, OK, but did we really have to take the path of mine and dine and thus envy, of satisfying bloodthirsty gods, of illusionairy control..
With all that in mind, the end to the ways of this world is a big lure to many, to some however this momentous time is seen as an opportunity to really put the boot in and establish their NWO..From here it looks there are a lot of holes in their plans ...they need us to defeat ourselves so be alert...
The Love That You Withhold, Is The Pain That You Carry
Posted by Carol_Noble on 08 Oct 2008 at about 10:47.
Cnnek, there will have to be a new financial system, for the present debacle is clearly not working, and too much panic exists for us to come out of this easily. Even if we did keep the old system intact we would all be aware of its shortcomings and not automatically accept what the powers that be say any more. It is something that I predicted many years ago and I don't see anything happening to really change this.
As for 2012, I have always felt that this will be point when things will start to change, but for many people this change will not be immediately noticable, especially if they are concentrating on general day to day living.
I have, at times, sensed when Autumn comes, or a season changes, and whilst it may not immediately be physically apparent, within a short time it truly is, and people often say that the season has arrived "quickly".
I know that this year at midsummer solstice I could sense the change in the atmosphere, and it was clear that summer was on the way out. Many people believe that a season only begins at an equinox/solstice, but actually it is the middle of the season, not the beginning, so as the middle point is passed it is possible to sense the change.
I know I am not explaining it very well but it is how I have experienced these things.
2012 in my mind is going to be no different. It will be the mid-point in a much larger change, and the changes are already occurring now! The financial crisis is but one major change that will affect the world.
Our lives, and our perception of a good life, will be changed radically, and I can only say that I have already had to come to terms with that change over the past few years, in advance of the mid-point, and so I believe we can all adapt, no matter how bad, or how destructive things seem, but we may have to modify our ideas as to what is mean by a "good life" in future. Society has to change, and soon, and will do whether we like it not!!
It used to feel like something was bound to happen, Moores law would 'allow' a sentient computer or create a virtual universe.......or maybe some other 'new age' of understanding would be ushered in. But ive changed my mind. Kinda feels like ive entered an alternative universal timeline in which nothing untoward will happen. But it also feels like ive left a timeline when 2012 will herald massive changes.
This is a hunch rather than a theory. It's based on a notion of quasi quantum ideas, personal experience and expectations. ie. the future is so much a part of ourselves in the now. How we both react to and feel about the present plays a greater part in our experience of the future. Its something like......but not.....creating reality. Maybe more like existing simultaneously in many timelines but choosing the one we experience. Not that we dont experience the other ones as well, just that we can only be aware of the most vividly relevent.
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Comments
28 June 2006
1 day 1 min
By 2012, there will have been massive changes. In fact, the world as we know it now will have ceased to exist. Science and Economics will have become the dominate determining forces in society. But, not economics as we know it today! Instead, an Economic system designed to maintain a stable economic enviornment with government functioning in an oversight capacity as referee.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
3 June 2008
8 weeks 4 days
"I thought we already had governments functioning in an oversight capacity as referee! "
That was meant slightly tongue in cheek but in principle it has some truth within it. As none of the western "democratic" governments actually own their currency their role is more of an overseer rather than owner. That is why so much has been lost in the gambling centres, sorry Trading Centres!
Whatever the rights and wrongs about the year 2012 being the year of the end of the world as we know it (socially) there does seem to be a great haste to get things done quickly, as if there is a secret deadline somewhere that a few know has to be met but who have failed to tell the rest of us!
As for science, there are so many black projects taking place in many countries that science must be a great deal farther advanced than is publicly acknowledged, so yes, we may seen what seems to be dramatic changes in scientific knowledge, but it will not really be new, only lots of scientific knowledge known for years secretly and now brought into the open.
Carol A Noble
28 June 2006
1 day 1 min
Carol,
A completely new system is going to have to be worked-out, or it is over!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
I don't see the various speculative bubbles and their occasional collapse as being related to our current system. And to stay on topic, I don't see 2012 as being particularly critical in time for these things.
Speculation and its excesses have been around since people started making promises they couldn't keep. A new system is unlikely to help, simply because all old systems have failed.
Meanwhile new bubbles are growing. China's run on commodities, China's run on imported technologies. Many African countries' reliance on foreign gifts for their food (!) supply.
Africa will fail again, and their leaders will blame the rest of the world from their exile in Europe, spending their stolen money, while the people they supposedly love so much are starving, again. Gulf area states building up new infrastructure to entertain super-rich tourists.
What will China do when they run out of technology to buy or steal? They are not importing the talent that invented those things. Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought? Can you set up such a culture in a few decades? Europe and the US have it, and the US has been importing talent and ambition for 200 years.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
12 April 2007
6 hours 2 min
Can you set up such a culture in a few decades?
I think you can. the first government to do it was Japan, after that other countries managed to do it in even less time, like South Korea, and now India where they've realised the most important renewable resource they have is an educated population. So now Indians prefer to stay in their own country instead of going overseas to America.
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
It is a start. But the educated and ambitious individuals are not enough. Their new ideas have to be accepted and supported by those around them. It is too early to tell if that works in India. Incidentally, none of the Indians that I know want to be back there, including the ones who went back.
An important question is, how long does it take? Sure, India and Korea have made a lot of progress, but from an abysmally low level. Can China in particular keep this going while keeping their authoritarian society, and what happens if they can't? Another bubble bursting? I think that this is a serious risk.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
China does run on exporting commodities...and everything else for that matter. When the time comes when China can no longer export cheaply like it has for the last 20 years what will happen?
"What will China do when they run out of technology to buy or steal? They are not importing the talent that invented those things. Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought? Can you set up such a culture in a few decades? Europe and the US have it, and the US has been importing talent and ambition for 200 years."
The Chinese culture will swing over to be more like the west - more American in fact. China does not need 200 years to do that - 40~60 years is more than enough. Don't agree? Just look at Japan.
Technology - people travel around the world and communicate like people 60 years ago could not have imagined - and this influence changes the culture.
It took the US +200 years to develop because that's how long it takes with no technology to help it along. (Doh!)
Need more? Look back 60 years at the US / western "culture" compared to today...DAMN!!! How could people live like that? Eewwwww!
Over time China will develop and become more homogeneous like the US and Europe. Outside of Shanghai (China's most "western" city) China is still good ol' China - smelly toilets, poopy hands and traditional thinking.
"Sure they have many talented people, but is that enough without a culture that encourages independent thought?"
Chinese value money and will do just about anything to get it therefore Chinese took to Capitalism like Greenpeace to a Japanese Whaling Research vessel. Chinese are now learning that more business, so more money, comes from better service. The follow on is that Chinese people are getting used to other Chinese people being more helpful and friendly.
Having a better job means more money and getting a better job means getting a better education. First and foremost with Chinese is going to university and getting the highest degree possible. It is true that today the emphasis is on getting that piece of paper signifying a degree rather than actually learning anything. So much so there is a common Chinese saying "High score low ability". This is changing however as more competition in the work place means a that piece of paper must be backed up with ability.
Chinese are slowly changing in their thinking and how they are living and this means their culture is changing. Change happens quickly in the cities and competition drives it towards the countryside - just like every other "modern western culture".
Cheers
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
Indeed the learning cycles are getting faster. The first ones that we don't even remember were quite slow. Infiltrations by people or peoples with different ways of thinking.
In the 1700s or so, rulers knew that they were doing this, importing intellectual groups. Now some governments could know not just that this works, but also have a grasp of how this works.
I still am a little sceptical about the purely monetary motivation. That works for a large scale movement. But does it work for the small sparks of invention that sustain this thing?
Probably, if you just let people think for a while, some of these sparks will happen. I just hope they won't be drowned out this time, where ever they come from. We need newer and better things, we are slowing down.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
I still am a little sceptical about the purely monetary motivation. That works for a large scale movement. But does it work for the small sparks of invention that sustain this thing?
Two questions for you.
1/ Have you ever flown on an Amercian owned airline?
2/ If you did you ever have a look at "Skymall" in the seat pocket?
No?
Why not check out Skymall and perhaps you might re-think your comment above. :)
Cheers
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
Of course I have been on more of these flights that I care to remember, and looked at these ads out of boredom, Never bought anything, but apparently some people do :)
Do you like tulips?
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
28 June 2006
1 day 1 min
Carol,
What I meant by government functioning as a referee is government functioning as a referee in a more defined manner. So far, government has functioned in a helter skelter manner with the emphasis being placed on saving their own asses, and winning the next election. I mean in a clearly defined manner that will actually be constructive, and actually help the economy. But, I'm dreaming! Maybe, I actually do have illogical thoughts, and dreams.:)
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
The world is changing, for example how we worked & lived in the 1980 is long gone compared to the year 2000 and so on.
So...the world as we knew it in 1992? Long gone come 2012. :)
Cheers
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
I don't expect any drastic changes, after all 2012 is only a little over 3 years in the future. However, some long term trends will have reversed, or become irrelevant. By 2012, the demand for oil in the western economies will have shifted from long-term increasing to long-term decreasing.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
12 April 2007
6 hours 2 min
Let's think about that: Let's imagine that by 2012 25% of all automobiles will run on other energy source other than gasoline.
Can we imagine what kind of global repercussions that single, almost trivial event would have? On the OPEC countries for instance? On Venezuela, Iran, China & Russia?
10 years ago the Internet was barely starting, and now look at us :-)
Now, one thing I didn't write in the other comments thread, is that I've read in some magazines that some experts in Indian studies have talked to several shamans and tribal leaders of indian communities in Latin America, and these people are certain something big is going to happen in 2012. Maybe it is a reinforcement of a recently modern meme; kind of a contamination being the result of New Age types interacting with these cultures. But still... ;-)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
Perhaps by 2020 but not in three years. I know this is not your point...but that won't stop me. :)
The US leads the world automobiles and Americans are way too "stuck in the mud" to change anything! LOL! It has been about 30 years since the US was to convert to the metric system - and still they haven't. Fuel economic diesel autos won't sell in the US because Americans think diesel is for trucks and the cost for diesel is higher anyway.
Business 101. Electric cars take off - just plug them in for a overnight charge. Lets see how expensive electricity becomes... Ok, we move over to solar cells and thumb our noses at the power company, Damn, solar cells got really expensive. In fact so did batteries, plastic and everything needed for alternative energy - why?
Supply and demand. The demand sets the price - the higher it is the higher the price.
Now to your point - OPEC getting narky about alternative energy. Even if they lose 25% of cars - who cares? The other 75% will still need oil as well as aircraft and they will adjust their output accordingly. Also, don't forget China is taking off in the car buyer market so by 2012 even if there are 25% less oil using cars in the west China will take up the slack and then some.
Oh, by the way China and Russia are not OPEC countries. They may produce oil like the US but they are not a member of the trading block. However when OPEC drives the price of OIL up all other oil producers smile all the way to the bank and do little to change the price.
Peak OIL? Oh yeah...right (sarcasm)
Saudi Arabia is at 70% of what it can produce and Iraq is hardly a trickle and it seems that Arctic oil will be fought over on who has rights to get it.
Cheers
12 April 2007
6 hours 2 min
Good insight as always, thiz_ho. Yeah, my 25% estimate is too high on a global scale. Maybe in some European countries though? :)
I'm kind of busy now, preparing the news briefs and all, but let's consider the possibility that by from the middle of the next decade gasoline cars will start to be looked at like buggy carts pulled by horses were seen in 1910s. Nothing has inffluenced the design of cities like automobiles have done it during the XXth century.
We might not recognize the cities of the next 25 years; and maybe that change will be quicker than what we expect.
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
A significant percentage of the petroleum is used for trucks in commercial transportation, about 30% in the US and Canada. In these countries, very little is used for electricity generation. This is quite different in other places.
Why do the trucks matter? Because it is easier to start converting them to other fuels. Apart from technical reasons (diesel engines burn almost anything), economic and legal forces are more effective on commercial users. That is why this trend will start in the US.
Anyway, for 2012 I don't see this having significant effect, other than that people will see the trend. Of course in the long term the changes will be significant, and some of the results will surprise us.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
You are correct that commercial transportation such as trucks and don't forget aircraft use a significant portion of petroleum.
What other possible viable fuels for trucks and aircraft could be (easily) used as you suggest?
Atomic?
Cheers
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
For trucks and other things with similar engines, any kind of combustible gas will do. Natural gas, coking gas (made from coal), methane from garbage, you name it.
For airplanes, the weight penalty and reduced tank capacity is a problem. They will probably use petroleum for the time being.
Big ships are good candidates for nuclear, there is some good experience with this technology. If it is done right of course, which eliminates Russia as a technology source.
On the lighter side, the Hummer crowd would go for a nuclear powered SUV, don't you think?
PS: the hafnium stuff could help, I was just talking about traditional nuclear.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
12 April 2007
6 hours 2 min
I don't see why a zeppelin couldn't run on electricity, even solar if you cover its entire surface with solar panels.
They are slow as hell, but maybe in the next century we'll forgo our obsession with speed.
-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
Zeppelins or Zeplines were the transport of the future in a comedy album "How Time Flys" released in 1973 by David Ossman of The Firesign Theatre.
I am a big fan of Firesign Theatre - have you heard of them? One of my favourite albums is "Everything You Know is Wrong" all about the aliens among us, the secret government training film of what to do when meeting an alien - look away!
And dogs are really aliens (from the dog star of course). "He's been there...and you probably don't even know where you are." Dr. Cox, commenting on a dog whose ancestors (he claims) came from outer space millions of years ago to rule the Earth.
There is Nino Savatte, the psychic mind-bender (not spoons).
And "Gary the Seeker", a well-meaning if annoying member of a group of New Age experimentalists who travel on what Gary describes as "The Heavenly Bus".
Funny as hell!
Cheers
12 April 2007
6 hours 2 min
Thanks to your suggestion, I've just found out this jewel on Youtube :-)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
Glad you enjoyed it.
Firesign Theatre albums are hard to find now but well worth the search!
Cheers
30 April 2004
1 week 3 days
Its all about Energy density by volume.
LPG (propane) has lower energy density of Petrol (Gasoline) therefore more of it must be used. It is even worse for Natural Gas.
The difference is in the chemical formula - Hydrocarbons. Methane or natural gas is CH4 - that is one atom of carbon and four atoms of Hydrogen - propane by comparison is C3H8.
It is the burning of hydrogen which producers energy and water (H20) is the result. The carbon burned becomes CO2 or CO. So as more Natural Gas or LPG is required to get the same energy output as petrol so there is a corresponding increase in Carbon. (Only by burning hydrogen is there no carbon...however...BOOM!)
LPG is best suited for such as cars and small vans which normally run on petrol. LPG energy density is 65% compared to diesel and about 75% compared to petrol.
That's all we need...Atomic Hummers! LOL! :)
I can't see atomic energy for container ships though... do you know HOW many container ships there are? Lots! And that is a LOT of enriched uranium everywhere...you know the other use for enriched urainium, right? (BOOM!)
Yep...no easy solution is there? That is until we get ZPMs!
Cheers
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
Actually my prediction was about petroleum demand, not about carbon output. Certainly the CO2 output is the same for any fossil source. The burning of C into CO2 produces energy as well, not just the H.
In any case, Pickens has a point, even though it may not be what he intends: we can look for indirect substituion of energy sources. What he wants to do is move natural gas from supporting electricity generation (a big usage of gas in the US) to transportation. The lack of electricity generation is supposed to be compensated by wind energy on a massive scale.
Whether this particular substitution works is a valid question. But we should look for other, indirect substitution. Personally I don't like hybrid cars, from an engineering point of view. They add more steps of energy conversion, and the batteries will be toxic and dangerous. Lithium-based batteries burn very happily.
The dangers of hydrogen explosions are exaggerated. It is no worse than gasoline, and dissipates much more quickly. The Hindenburg was painted with rocket fuel, which didn't really slow down the fire very much. Also, quite a few passengers survived the crash and the fire.
About the energy density, yes gasoline is better than the various gases. But this is not a major concern for big vehicles, hence starting with trucks and buses is the easiest.
----
It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
7 October 2008
3 years 17 weeks
Not knowing a whole lot about this matter, but instead listening to people who do. I've heard many say that when this time comes, the earth shall tilt on its own axis. With in a few days or a couple of weeks. So Dec 21st is a start to the end. Scholars say as the earth shifts, our own gravitaional pull will cause major caos to our ice caps, jet streams, and oceanic currents. thus causing major hurricanes, volcanic erruptions, and world wide flooding. All in all very plausible since we have proven that the earth does not rotate in a single circular motion, but more of a wobble. I just trying to figure out how the myans knew this. My theory is that the stars they saw at night which helped make up their calender, would all vanish from site. Meaning since they no longer can see their gods in the sky then to them they will no longer be supported by the gods bringings of fortune and shall all pay the price in misfortune. just a theory, anyways any thoughts?
10 August 2004
1 day 20 hours
...the solar system is currently crossing a 'hole' in the galaxy which leads directly to the galactic centre. The crossing began in 1998 and will end in 2026 when we reach the shelter of the starfields on the other side of the 'hole'.
2012 is the time we reach the mid-point.
The galactic centre is known to (kind-of) sneeze occasionally. If this happens whilst we are unprotected from whatever effect is thrown in our direction it could cause massive changes to our planet.
Let's all hope we travel safely.
Regards, Kathrinn
1 May 2004
21 hours 34 sec
hi Kathrinn, thanks so much for your hospitality in August. I've been keeping pretty quiet these days for reasons you know of.....anyway, projectcamelot web site has a link to a great thread that explains the whole deal in great detail. Well worth the read. It is a large read so you may wish to save after it has loaded.
Chemtrails continue in this area on a regular basis. I notice the more frequent times are when they drift towards Brisbane.....usually followed by an out-break of chest infection and hacking cough. Not by me though. Have a great collection of chemtrail pictures now.
Back to the thread.......I do believe that the Galactic centre has much to do with 2012. But it will be our own sun that causes the problems as it obsorbs all the cosmic dust that will enter our solar system when the Heliopause is breached by the outflow of Gamma Rays from the Galactic centre.Already there is a great hole forming in our Magnetosphere and this alone will have dire consequences on us and all living organisms. All the information is out there when you look hard for it. NASA has the info on the Magnetosphere with diagrams.
Hope your Christmas break has been hassle free. I had another grandson 7 weeks ago so was cool to catch up with them as I took my two younger one's home. The X just had a little girl so that was interesting as well.
Great to pop into the Grail now and again, HAPPY NEW YEAR to Greg, Kat and all others who know me through the years.
Happy New Year Kathrinn and thanks ever so much for everything.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
11 March 2008
2 years 27 weeks
Hello,
The end of the world and all the talk is about gas...no wonder those oilcompanies and their governmental cronies don't want any change..keep them dummies on edge and with their wallets open.
The end of the world as we know it, the current financial crises maybe averted temporarily, with some more hot air or virtual money..compared to the real CDO problems, 700 billion is just a drop in an ocean of created debt in order to get them bonusses...blame it on the suckers that took out a morgage they couldnt pay...such an uninformed outrage..No the financial system will crash completely...good thing too, as the value of assets has completely overshadowed the work of real value..its back to basics..
Now its still 4 years before the Mayan end date comes in sight...it could be a little sooner or later...these passed years i've read so many snippets of ideas..sure, the shamen say so..why wouldnt they...more disturbing are the reports that filter thru about black ops that encountered timetravel bumps around that date...i note too that UK and USA government have been acting as if there was no tomorrow to worry about..no financial discipline or big infrastructure investments , the London olympics being the last big project/gasp of the elite that has been bleeding off this world. They know it, and know not what to do, some will bury themselves deep underground, btw another technology thats been kept from the public domain.
So what will happen ? The best ive read is a dimensional shift..its already underway in our galaxy but hasn't reached us yet, nobody needs to be killed or suicide allthough the the latter will undoubtely happen. Those deeply embedded in the material world (like the elite) seem to think escaping this world will help, but obviously it won't. Who knows, some alien harvesters might drop by to extend their slave/foodstock..just hop on the bus and we'll set you free..
It should be alright, though i hate to think about what those deranged black opps still have in stock, their souls must have been deeply blackened over the years, and forgiveness will look unobtainable to them..will they burn this planet..all bets are off on that one.
This world has so many problems, cynical exploitation and (mindless) violence, unbelievable inequities. i wonder how the hell it's working at all. Why do we humans accept this crap ? Are we really so engaged in the ratrace that we don't see how we're being toyed with, right from the start when stepped out of nature (the garden of eden if you will) and stepped into the world of materialism. Now some might say that's our choice, OK, but did we really have to take the path of mine and dine and thus envy, of satisfying bloodthirsty gods, of illusionairy control..
With all that in mind, the end to the ways of this world is a big lure to many, to some however this momentous time is seen as an opportunity to really put the boot in and establish their NWO..From here it looks there are a lot of holes in their plans ...they need us to defeat ourselves so be alert...
The Love That You Withhold, Is The Pain That You Carry
3 June 2008
8 weeks 4 days
Cnnek, there will have to be a new financial system, for the present debacle is clearly not working, and too much panic exists for us to come out of this easily. Even if we did keep the old system intact we would all be aware of its shortcomings and not automatically accept what the powers that be say any more. It is something that I predicted many years ago and I don't see anything happening to really change this.
As for 2012, I have always felt that this will be point when things will start to change, but for many people this change will not be immediately noticable, especially if they are concentrating on general day to day living.
I have, at times, sensed when Autumn comes, or a season changes, and whilst it may not immediately be physically apparent, within a short time it truly is, and people often say that the season has arrived "quickly".
I know that this year at midsummer solstice I could sense the change in the atmosphere, and it was clear that summer was on the way out. Many people believe that a season only begins at an equinox/solstice, but actually it is the middle of the season, not the beginning, so as the middle point is passed it is possible to sense the change.
I know I am not explaining it very well but it is how I have experienced these things.
2012 in my mind is going to be no different. It will be the mid-point in a much larger change, and the changes are already occurring now! The financial crisis is but one major change that will affect the world.
Our lives, and our perception of a good life, will be changed radically, and I can only say that I have already had to come to terms with that change over the past few years, in advance of the mid-point, and so I believe we can all adapt, no matter how bad, or how destructive things seem, but we may have to modify our ideas as to what is mean by a "good life" in future. Society has to change, and soon, and will do whether we like it not!!
Carol A Noble
11 August 2008
1 year 12 weeks
It used to feel like something was bound to happen, Moores law would 'allow' a sentient computer or create a virtual universe.......or maybe some other 'new age' of understanding would be ushered in. But ive changed my mind. Kinda feels like ive entered an alternative universal timeline in which nothing untoward will happen. But it also feels like ive left a timeline when 2012 will herald massive changes.
This is a hunch rather than a theory. It's based on a notion of quasi quantum ideas, personal experience and expectations. ie. the future is so much a part of ourselves in the now. How we both react to and feel about the present plays a greater part in our experience of the future. Its something like......but not.....creating reality. Maybe more like existing simultaneously in many timelines but choosing the one we experience. Not that we dont experience the other ones as well, just that we can only be aware of the most vividly relevent.
22 November 2004
1 week 6 days
after all is said and done, most importantly done, 2012 will bring 2013.
Also, the things that are not done will bring about 2013, making it worse than need be.
But hey, the same is true about 2008/2009.
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It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.