I went last Sunday to the movies, to see 10,000 B.C., along with the only person in my family that actually enjoys those kinds of flicks: my nephew :-)
What did I think of it? I enjoyed it. It's packed with lots of excitement and eye-candy. It will definitely not be remembered in the annals of cinema as the most compelling story, but I believe that for the average Grailer this flick will have many interesting things, if you are willing to suspend your disbelief and remember you are not seeing a National Geographic documentary.
Because obviously, there are a lot of mistakes done in the movie. For instance, all the paleo-creatures presented are freakishly huge —the saber-toothed tiger, which obviously cannot be a smilodon, for those felids were exclusive of America, is twice the size of a Bengal tiger, now that's some scary kitty!— They also assume in this movie that wooly mammoths had a patriarchal hierarchy, when all the modern pachiderms we know have mathriarcal societies —in other words, elephants are just like us, women are in charge of things :-)
Geographically speaking, this movie is a mess. It takes you from what you can only assume it is Europe (Russia? Turkey?), to the rain forests, grasslands and savannahs of Africa, to what appears to be the delta of the River Nile. So apart from the incredible journey the characters accomplished, I don't know if the producers bothered to ask any archeologists what exactly were the climatic conditions of Northern Africa by the end of the last Ice Age, since we know by cave paintings that the climate there was much more humid, and vegetation more exhuberant. I suppose they (the producers) made their decissions so the audience could immediately recognize where the movie was taking place, by falling into some worn stereotypes.
So even if you haven't seen the movie yet, you probably know by watching the trailers that it deals with the idea of a very ancient civilization that had already reached a high degree of sophistication, and that it pre-dated the culture we know as Egypt. One thing that I consider to have been a good move by the director, is that it deliberately left many things unexplained about this mysterious 'mother culture', so you can reach your own conclusions about where they came from. Nevertheless, it is obvious the director has read quite a few books about the ancient myths of the "Nephilim"...
One other thing that was very pleasant for me to have noticed, is that there are quite a few homages to Darklore's contributor Robert Schoch and his theories. Now, if you haven't seen the movie (or read Darklore nor any of Robert's books) I'm not going to tell you; suffice it to say that, although it only happens for mere seconds on the screen, something appears that you immediately go "Wow!". I really would like to know Robert's opinion of this movie.
So, in this humble Grailer's opinion, any member of TDG should really consider taking the time to see this movie at your closest multiplex (the bigger the screen, the better!). Sure, some things will bother you, like the fact that eventhough they lacked the knowledge of metallugy or how to make underwear, those neolithic hunter-gatherers still managed to have whiter teeth than you! But as I said, this movie was never intended to be an alternative-history documentary. It is a Hollywood blockbuster, and as such it is going to be a big success.
Bring on the popcorn!
Thanks, RPJ, I've been thinking of going to see this anyway.
Playing fast and loose with the facts - that's called poetic license for the sake of a great (er, big, exciting?) story line.
Bring of the popcorn!
I did a painting called 10,000 B. C.
Much of my philosophy is pushed back to 12,000 years ago and if I live long enough I will put it in my book A SECRET CLOSELY HELD.. The Moire Arena. I need the visuals expressed by the movie you viewed so I will be going to see it also. I think I will take my grandkids.
cheers.
kids
Perhaps this kind of movie has value, it can get children interested in pre-history, and science.
Of course, if that interest wanes too quickly, they will be left with incorrect ideas - that all these creatures lived at the same time, in the same place and so on.
So it can serve as educational bait. Get them hooked, and then help them learn.
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wherever you go, there you are
Education
This is all very well until they have to get down to the nitty gritty of history. Here, I think historians fail them, in that they offer too voluminous an account of history, with specific reasons for this or that.
I'm convinced that the answer is for a new level of history which I would call - yes, you've guessed it! - Patternological.
Offer brief resumes of each period of history and show them how one thing follows from something else. The 'connections' will interest them and draw them in.
I've produced the kind of thing I mean here:
http://beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/histo...
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I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
kids and adults
I look for patterns to explain why things happen. The reason is that history seems to repeat itself, both across a few years and across long time spans. Why does this happen?
This takes us away from the starting point (the movie), but it is interesting how quickly thus happens. Evidence of a pattern right here?
Anyway, I am looking for a better way of presenting ideas. Like this idea of patterns. All that I have seen is bottom-up. That is, the observations are shown in some amount of detail, and then towards the end of the presentation we have are shown a pattern that fits. Or often, it is just suggested that there is a pattern.
I prefer an opening that says what the pattern is, or may be. Followed by some supporting evidence. And that should be followed by some conclusion, honestly stated, about how sure we are.
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wherever you go, there you are
Philosophy
What you're talking about is philosophy. Unfortunately, it's seen as discredited today, a half-way house between religion and science, and often dangerous.
This is the error. Patternology is philosophy.
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I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
not really
I am not looking for a statement of global, everlasting patterns, followed by some examples.
I am looking for an observation of patterns, without philosophy, and then a few examples. Two at least obviously.
There are obvious patterns, "politicians are all the same", but that is not very interesting.
What I find interesting are the patterns common to widely different things. Why does is an octopus curious like a dog or a human? Why does an octopus or a dog look back when you look at them, and a spider does not? It is not the central brain, an octopus doesn't have one. It is something else.
Similar patterns arise out of vastly different circumstances, seemingly random. Apparently there is something that leads to the patterns. What is that?
We can start with observations. Exhibit examples of similar patterns. That is fine.
What I am looking for is not a forgone conclusion, just introductory statements: here are examples of similar patterns. And we should describe how they are similar, and why there is reason, or maybe no observable reason, why they should be similar.
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wherever you go, there you are
Interesting patterns
I too agree that throughout history you can more or less discern some very interesting and repeating patterns.
One of the most interesting for me is the simmilarities between all major ancient myths and religion: Osiris, Dionisios, the Budha, the Christ, why do all these myths present the same underlying fundamental shape hidden by a veil of circumstancial and chronological backgrounds?
I really wish I knew the answer to that one.
Reading Darklore's vol. 1 (get your copy now!!!) Daniel Pinchbeck discussed a little about the seemingly spiral pattern of time, and how Terence McKenna and his brother tried to foresee an abrupt singular end to this present "time wave" we are experiencing by the now very famous and marketable date of 2012.
I don't know if time has a spiral shape, but it certainly seems asthough humans merely evolve tools and clothing, but underneath it all we are still pretty much the same since the time we discovered fire and started to make funny doodles on cave walls...
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Patterns of history
You can't find patterns without philosophy if you're dealing in higher, relatively unseen, data. You need a generalisation to work from. It's then up to the specialists to see if the generalisation fits.
One possible pattern that fits in with the myths Red speaks of is that we repeat psychological elements that are shared by the species. Think Jungian archetypes. All mythological figures follow the psychgological format - Osiris, etc, are the Hero.
Patterns are hidden in history by changing cultures. Whilst a culture may change things, the underlying collective psychology remains. For instance, we need to create a belief in a non-existant concept and make it real. Think God, or gods. Then compare to modern super-capitalism, where we've created an exact same thing with 'credit'.
If everything we owe was paid back, it wouldn't exist, but our belief seems to make it real, it is controlling, above us, gives us rewards, etc, just like God.
History moves in patterns because of what I'd call the 'cultural catalyst', i.e. someone who offers an idea that grabs attention and causes a consensus. It will become an 'extreme' because we take it too far. This creates 'frustrations' on people and the system, which will eventually bring that culture down, causing another 'cultural catalyst', in a never-ernding pattern.
Frustrations thus become the driving force of advancement.
These are all generalisations. Now see if they fit the facts. If they do, it's philosophy that gave the answer.
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I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
presentation
No anthonynorth, you are missing my original point.
I have no problem with your conclusions, even if they are notfirm conclusions. It is not about whether we have the same conclusions, or even the same assumptions. I find your points reasonable, even when I don't agree.
It is about style of presentation.
I'm just saying that in lengthy presentations, it is much more effective to give conclusions at the beginning, even if speculative. What is wrong with starting out with "I have seen some patterns, they look like this" and then presenting the reasons why have observed these patterns?
As opposed to telling the reader, "read these 2000 pages, then I tell you what I think" ?
I think an author can make the point much better when they remind the reader what the evidence is about. At the beginning of the text, at the beginning of chapters and paragraphs.
It is not specifically about you, just about most writing.
So I recommend a structured approach:
- tell them why you tell them
- tell them what you tell them
- tell them
- tell them what you told them
- tell them why you told them
Because, they forget these things
As a side note, mathematical proofs are the worst style. They throw a bunch of seemingly unrelated details at you, and then at the end they come up with the big conclusion. Nobody thinks that way, not even brilliant mathematicians, and I have known some of them.
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wherever you go, there you are
Like science journals?
I suppose what you are looking for is philosophers and historians to use the approach of scientific peer-reviewed journals, with an abstract at the very beginning, followed by the basic proposition and the evidence gathered for such conclusions.
But, personally, I still think the most important thing would be lost there: the ability to CAPTURE the imagination of the reader. And I really don't know if a scientific journal is able to do that. Maybe that can only be accomplished with a good novel, or a movie, eventhough the facts are secondary to the main purpose of entertaining people.
When the first missionaries arrived to Mexico, they encountered the problem of trying to instruct the natives about the basic tennents of the new religion, while at the same time replacing or suplanting the sacred rituals still mantained by the people. The solution was simple: enacted recreations of the Nativity passages of the Bible, which are called pastorelas here in Mexico. They are the basis of the festivities called posadas which were first festivities in honor of the aztec god Huitzilopochtli and now are celebratd to commemorate the 9 days before the birth of Baby Jesus.
You have to capture the imagination of the people, in order to communicate an idea. When you do that succesfully, the idea becomes something more: it becomes a myth. And myths have power that trascend time and space.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
right
Yes, the audience is just as important as the message, if not more.
What do I want to say, and what will they hear?
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wherever you go, there you are
Another thing I liked about this movie
Many people may find Roland Emmerich's films as simple tinseltown products designed to produce high numbers at the box office. But one thing I appreciate about this particular director, is that his movies help disseminate interestingly heretical ideas throughout popular conciousness.
'Independence Day' helped disseminate the memes of Roswell, Area 51 and reverse engineering of alien technology to pop culture. 'Day After Tomorrow' helped people become aware of that the implications of climate change could be sudden and dramatic. Now this movie may help propagate the idea of ancient advanced civilizations that are far older than what orthodox archeology officially recognizes. So if a young kid who watches this flick decides later to pick up a book by Robert Bauval, Graham Hancock or Robert Schoch, it would be very interesting to see what that young kid decides to do later in life.
After all, how many people decided to become engineers because they were fans of Star Trek, and Scotty? :-)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Presentation
You've both got good points here. I see nothing wrong with what Earthling is saying about presentation, but there's got to be imagination, a message, an impulse. Red's identification of the 'mystery plays' is a good example. I've said elsewhere that this is good tabloid journalism.
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Reality, like time, is relative to the observer
Anthony North
Re Credit
Very interesting and novel concept, Anthony - I'd never looked at Credit in this way before - something (real money)that only exists on paper or in a computer, but which is believed in, and can be traded and utilised as if it was indeed a manifest reality. The parallels which can be drawn between this and defined religions are amazing. Food for thought!
Regards, Kathrinn
Humanity is much more than many of us know...
12,000 years ago, the Earth was much different. The picture we think we see from the haze of time may not be as we surmise. Our learned mentality is full of junk science and if we meditate upon the past, strange differences seem to appear. What if we were much more advanced just prior to the Carolina Bays Event (Incoming Comet). What if we did genetically engineer most of what we see here now. Humanity has the wherewithal to be much more, yet the weak little being that we have become now gets in the way of a mentality that created ancient Egypt (The Temple of Man — Lubicz) or the Vedic Traditions or the Jomon culture lost at sea. When you discuss this, don't sell us short, we could have been like the picture you see of us from that movie or we could have been even more...The universe is our pedestal. At one time, it could have been our throne.
Niice...
"The universe is our pedestal. At one time, it could have been our throne."
I dig that!
Unfortunately, at present it is our prison :-(
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
And whose fault is that..???
Humanity sells itself short due to the Liberal Shamanism that is found within the Coven of the Wussery. We are powerful beings if we educate ourselves and seek Wisdom. But no, many of us are sold on being victims so we may leverage from a position of weakness. We have been had to think we even need governments. In the past it might have been the most exacting sin to even have governments over man. There is a way of being that does not require being a wuss.
Out with it
There is a way of being that does not require being a wuss.
Well, hopefully we'll find it, and enable it... before it i too late.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
10,000 B.C.
Well it sounds like a good exercise for me I love special effects but as you mentioned in your review its the facts at times that get in the way of a good story. It's funny that I can have such a good time at a good old Scifi move where the laws of physics are shoved out the air lock often in the first few minutes, but I get all snarky about mix and match approaches to prehistory. Maybe I'll wait for the DVD so I can get buzz going and have a good time fighting with myself about the Pleistocene environments without bothering anyone. Thanks for the review.
It Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time
me too
Actually, one of the reasons I prefer science fiction to "mainstream" fiction is that science fiction honestly says that they are making up a world.
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wherever you go, there you are
the power of Sci Fi
Many renowned scientists have understood the power of sci-fi to cummincate novel ideas in a compelling and inspiring way. Provided that it provokes an interest in real science afterwards, sci-fi is an invaluable learning tool. It also challenges the limits of our knowledge and can spark paradigm shifts. How many serious astro-physicists are now lookig for real ways to develop Warp drive because they were inspired by Star rek or Star Wars as kids?
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
thanks
I have heard quite a few people say positive things about the film...I don't put flicks like this as top priority for me ..Hell I still have not seen one Harry Potter film..and I have never gone beyond Star Wars 1 ..I think..Yeah I'm a real boring person,man...Anyway, I think I will give this one a try..I suppose you would agree that it is best seen in a Movie theater, right?...I'll let you know what I think about it afterwards..Stay Frosty, Steve
Hey Steve
There are movies that you can wait to see on DVD, and movies that desserve the giant screen of the multiplex. '10,000 B.C.' is definitely one of the latter.
Would that be Star Wars ep. 1, or Star Wars ep. IV? ;-) I sometimes imagine that in 20 years George will release all the 6 movies with interactive alternative endings. In my alternative ending, I would let the ewoks take over the galaxy!! :-D
Harry Potter I can understand, but please, PLEASE tell me ou have at least seen the first 'Matrix' movie!!!!!!!!
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie