On Top of the Pyramid of the Sun
BOSNIA.....
"I looked for the bases of the pyramids, there were none, there were no defined ridges, the faces of the hills were not aligned with the cardinal points; at times depending on where you were standing, they were out 30 degrees or more from straight alignment. There was no methodology of intelligent design applied to any layout of any structure or the pyramidal complex; only random points of excavated areas. There were no foundations of any kind, no concrete, no man-made blocks, no walls, joints or beams, corners, arches, geometry or constructed facets of any ancient structures."
On Top of the Pyramid of the Sun in Visoko Bosnia -World's Largest Pyramid or Hoax?
I see there is some hoop pa la being posted about those phony hills there in Bosnia. I have posted a paper on some of the “not right” things that are going on in Visoko and Semir Osmanagic when I was there last August of 2006. One graphic in particular that is important to see is the one about the North East Face “Ridge” of the so called pyramid. There is no ridge there as in straight line as in declining angle of two faces of a triangle connected at the base and apex. What there was, was a hump of stone, then some jagged edges, more humps at a different angle, a sloping edge falling off into a ravine and out into the woods, none of the edges were facing North as was told to the world by Sammie…there were absolutely no alignments with Cardinal points on the hills that were connected to any structure in regards to any pyramid. Sure you could find North on your compass and stand there and look, but, you were not in line with any corner, base or anything. The pyramid believers are claiming those hills are aligned with North, that there is a pyramid there and it has a base, face angles and an apex --- no, nothing is on those hills except some very small bits of the ruins on top of Visoko hill from the old fort that was there from the Medieval period and that is on top of the hill running in a linear fashion for some odd yards until it bends and twists and weaves around. There is no pyramid there as defined by what a pyramid is known to us by. There were no blocks, there were no tiles, there were no architectural ruins of any sorts left behind, nothing was there except where the hill sides were cut at a vertical angle to display the strata and bedrock that was cracked and some cleaned up cracked bedrock that was so obviously natural stone in situ that was uncovered, that it is a gross appeal to the public to state otherwise..
Oh , the names…well, there is a map posted too, one of the slides Sammie uses in his speech, it shows the locations of the so called pyramids and their relevant names of Love, Dragon, Moon….
You can read up on most of the geology concerning the hills and stone balls on Irna’s website http://irna.lautre.net/article.php3?id_a... she has done a wonderful job along with Paul H. on the defining the terrain and stratification of the hills. They have written actual geological reports and supply topical maps, images and charts – and show an ancient lake bed - quite thorough and very revealing of the nature of fraud that is being propagated there in Visoko concerning those hills…..my my…..
Irna is a French “scientist – teacher” lady who has followed this story since it broke. I have supplied her and Mr. Paul H. with photographs of the Zavidovici Stone Balls as well so they could do some analysis and compare with what Semir was calling man made…..and there is also all of the articles written about the many different aspects of the alleged pyramids and the political mumbo jumbo going on in Bosnia in Circular Times for any one who is new to this….they are listed on Circular Times Home Page
and Circular Times Table of Contents Page
All of the articles are loaded with photographs and graphics to clearly show what is going on over there. Doug Weller and I also choreographed some articles (here is one he wrote) Extraordinary Claims Needs Extraordinary Evidence
with lots of images and important facts concerning the funding strategies of the organization and how they are misleading the public to take their money in false hopes of some pyramid. Many of Sammie’s slides are shown in the paper that he shows to the public when he gives his little speeches.
Some very pertinent info is stated in all of these different articles along with photographs and are well worth the read to get an idea of how bogus this whole deal with the so called Bosnian pyramids is and the warped sense of the Bosnian government. You will see for yourself just how weird it is to say to the world there is a pyramid there when you are looking at natural formations and man carved hillsides and terraces out of bedrock. All and all, I am amazed in some ways that Sammy is still pumping out the jive, but, I suppose if he were to stop, that would be a clear sign that the party is over, so he must maintain his status quo. How long can he endure? Many think until the money runs out.
I have read up on some of the very negative things that are happening in Visoko lately and the threats to some of the people who are in Bosnia and have websites against the pyramid people and Semir Osmanagic. They are being threatened by some of the companies that are sponsoring the Foundation with money. This is a serious crime that is going unnoticed by some of the authorities in Bosnia. You can also read up on that at Irna’s site too…… http://irna.lautre.net/For-lack-of-any-s...
She has a very interesting site dedicated to the Bosnian "hoax" and she and her colleagues are very together in presenting the facts and geological aspects…...very good indeed.
Hope this was of some interest to you.
C
dr colette
I can not agree with you !
I admire you and dr Schoch science works but in the case of Bosnia you are so wrong.
I can not understand your point????Sorry!!!!Why do you hate that people so much?
wow
Hello,
I thought I would stop by here and see what is up.
Wow, think about how big this thing is with the pyramid scheme. It has divided many people. I sometimes think about souls and karma. I think about how many souls that are being led down a path that is almost down right evil. I would not like to be the person who is responsible for leading people into false dreams and hopes and experience the wrath of such deceit in heaven or hell or where ever judgment lies, even if it is our own consciousness. But, then again I can take that farther down the path and consider the person responsible for doing that is not caring about their effects in soul life and spirit as if they were, they would be aware of the evils of deceit and the responsibilities to others and what they have created – but, they are not – or if they are, they do not care.
I suppose those individuals such as the ones in charge of the pyramid scheme, are not qualified to classify as “conscious people” in the book of definitions of terms I use. However there are many languages and beliefs and maybe, just maybe in their book, by definition this is all Ok, but, not in mine. And I am not going to revise mine to allow it to be Ok and change my value system.
There are some set standards in the world beyond religion and laws, it is called ethics, common ethics. However the criminally insane (which I am dealing with right now) their boundaries are far different than what is accepted by the majority of peoples. And the criminally insane in time are usually set aside in society as to not have their definitions scab hearts, souls and minds. We are all affected by thoughts or actions stemming from self or others.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Insanity & Ethics?
There are some set standards in the world beyond religion and laws, it is called ethics, common ethics. However the criminally insane (which I am dealing with right now) their boundaries are far different than what is accepted by the majority of peoples. And the criminally insane in time are usually set aside in society as to not have their definitions scab hearts, souls and minds. We are all affected by thoughts or actions stemming from self or others.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
INSANITY & ETHICS?
Unacceptable lessons about morality, false accusations and despicable insults hurled by a commercial new-ager who made up his career by claiming to be an alien abductee and that MRI scans have shown an implant in the center of her brain.
I don't know about your 'primary wound' but it surely aliments the rancor you are cultivating in your mind and soul!?
P.S. I couldn't resist to your provocation, what for a sinner I am. lol
DR COLETTE
What is your point talking about criminals and criminal activities when you are commiting the crime by yourself talking about Bosnians with that much hate and anger?
Why don't you live the science to prove or disprove the facts ?
Mister Osmanagic is not scientist but he is managing the science and that was one of the resons why you did visit Bosnia and pyramids .However you do have rights for your opinions but not insult others and in the science there is always second opinion and so on .
Dr Schoch is one respected scientist but not only one,you schuld face that
Thanks
Monique
P.S I feel sorry about you
Crime/s
Crime/s - criminal - look it up in American dictionary.
"I have read up on some of the very negative things that are happening in Visoko lately and the threats to some of the people who are in Bosnia and have websites against the pyramid people and Semir Osmanagic. They are being threatened by some of the companies that are sponsoring the Foundation with money. This is a serious crime that is going unnoticed by some of the authorities in Bosnia. You can also read up on that at Irna’s site too……" CMD - me
http://irna.lautre.net/For-lack-of-any-s...
You will need to wait for it to load.
Here are a few excerpts in brief...
"If you used to have sometimes a look on the various blogs of the "Anti-Pyramid Web Ring" in Bosnia, you may have noticed that their content has disappeared; instead there is a short post, saying that "because of the pressures bearing on us and our families, and of the trial threats", their authors have decided to stop, at least temporarily, writing their blogs........."
".....but it is evident that there is here a strategy, aiming at frightening and intimidating the opponents. And during this time, Mr. Semir Osmanagic goes on posing as open-minded and tolerant..."
and more at:
http://irna.lautre.net/For-lack-of-any-s...
"frightening and intimidating the opponents" Gee, I wonder how I knew....I will continue to post reports, news and links. I am not going to stop because you are harassing me little miss french woman, I have been through this before, but, with the big boys.
Hello Hypo - how is your bosnian-pyramid forum getting along these days? Should be hopping. Gee, and to think I was going to ignore you....well, that is not being a good Christian is it? But, next time I will.
Bless you too dear..........I am smiling.
You see , this is all sensational for the readers, and it makes for a good adrenalin rush. I do not mind that.
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Let's Dance!
Hello Hypo - how is your bosnian-pyramid forum getting along these days? Should be hopping. Gee, and to think I was going to ignore you....well, that is not being a good Christian is it? But, next time I will.
Bless you too dear..........I am smiling.
You see , this is all sensational for the readers, and it makes for a good adrenalin rush. I do not mind that.
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Dear Colette,
What the super-Ego ignores... the soul never can.
So, what we are waiting for?
May I have this dance?
Smiling
Hypo
P.S. In the Forum I can't find a quote.
"little miss french woman"
Colette, your stories are telling me a lot about your lonely life .That is one sad story of one unhappy
women, who is satisfaction
finding in somthings what is very incomen for low life
I wish you more happinest in your life
Monique
Informative Article - Exposes Threats and Intimidation
Hello,
Article Here
This is an interesting article by Colin Woodard written in March of 2007. It is a well rounded article, he covers most of the inside news and had interviewed some of our colleagues involved with the investigation. I do not necessarily agree that our life was personally in danger. I know some of the people were nervous, but, more so about loosing their jobs working on site. The courageous individulas were more happy to tell the truth about the phony inscriptions on the slabs in the tunnel and what they had witnessed and experienced since they had been working for the Foundation, then they were worried about loosing their job. It seems it was a very stressful time for them and they were not happy at all trying to cover up what the truth really was and having to act like puppets. It was a form of freedom for them to finally be able to say," Hey, this is not real." And, as time passed, there was much cover up about one geologist working for the foundation who was one of the individuals responsible for telling the truth and letting the worm out of the can sort to say. This particular person did end up loosing their position and about every "scientific" person we were in contact with when we were there lost their position within the next few weeks to a month to follow. This was not due to the lack of funding.
The head geologist and archaeologist did not have proper equipment to even measure or take compass readings, I gave my extra set of tools away, spilt up between the two so they had some tools to work with. How was it they carried on their crucial work without the use of tools? They weren't, they were not really working, they spent most of the time just walking around on the hill sides or sitting in the hotel lounge eating pancaches and drinking coffee, chatting amongst themselves. Little was being done as far as actual fine precision digging and sifting through the soil to uncover any possible artifacts. There were huge back hoes, and tractors cutting away the hills in vertical cuts with trucks hauling the dirt away. It was more like a construction zone. In some areas they had rope tied off around huge boulders or other odd shaped stones. The set of large boulders were made up of conglomerate material. They had somewhat right angle corners on maybe 2 out of four sides, it was these sides that were photographed and placed in the news and on websites. Photographs were strategically used to market the story of the pyramid with man made blocks and tile. Low resolution photos were used to spread propaganda, as poor images were depicting aged building material.
I have always been attacked, every since I sent the first news bulletin over to the Grail. The people who attack me are the believers, they attack Schoch too and any one who does not agree with the hoaxing. However, most of the believers are not educated in the sciences. Most of the believers are lacking in economic stability and any form of hope for a joyous future. The pyramids brought that to them and they do not want to let it go. That is the bad part of Sammie's wonderland story, that is the part I have been trying to point out, the believers are the ones who will get hurt. They are also the ones who are attacking. No where have I ever stated I hate Bosnians, and I do not know of any one who does hate Bosnians. Any one who has gone over there will state the majority of the people are lovely. The people involved with the pyramid scheme are the ones who are nerve wracking and aggressive. This is proven out by the postings of drive-by posters who have been stopping by to cut throat on any postings about the hoaxing. The people who are writing the postings about hate, are the people who are protecting their emotional investment in a false hope. It is a very scary ordeal to consider that what you have believed in and given of yourself may have been just a con after all. It would be humiliating to any believer to have their beliefs shattered in front of them and the global community. The people who have been promoting this scam will not stop as it is their motive to gain financially and politically from it. They not only have their emotions invested in it, they have their time and money, so sure they a will not come forward and spill the beans.
The most courageous individuals I have seen are the ones who have com forward and told the truth of what they have been up to in Visoko and they have done it at the risk of loosing their job and harassment of their families.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Menality.
I have always been attacked, every since I sent the first news bulletin over to the Grail. The people who attack me are the believers, they attack Schoch too and any one who does not agree with the hoaxing.
The most courageous individuals I have seen are the ones who have com forward and told the truth of what they have been up to in Visoko and they have done it at the risk of loosing their job and harassment of their families.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Dear Dr. Colette,
1. The article of Colin Woodard is typical 'faction' journalism.
2. You are stronlgy contradicted (not attacked) by others because of your continuous insults towards many respected people.
3. Truth.
"Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"
mr. zetetic
Extraordinary Claims Need Extraordinary Evidence
This is just like post August of 2006, when articles were popping up everywhere. Maybe it is a good thing to re-introduce these papers so people do not forget and get too comfortable in the background while the "party" continues on with their agenda.
I think the recent announcement and Phillip Coppens
"The New Pyramid Age" has set some fires burning due to some of the phrases that have been quoted from his book, such as the one I pasted in below which Greg had pointed out.
For those who have not followed the story to a large degree or investigated particular events and people/politicians - or had "hands on" experience and dealt with the issues, all of this might seem like a good thing - for State funding. How many people have looked up the politicians back grounds and investors back ground to understand who all of these people are? There is a line up of undesirables standing eagerly to get a bite of the control and power over some of the political sectors of Bosnia and religious factors. Foreign investment is being sought by Semir who actually publicized taking money from young school children that have been saving it all of their life and who live in poverty, to invest in the pyramid scheme. They were told they were contributing to their brothers and sisters of the global community. Their total gift was less than what the flight cost to obtain the money. That money could have given them security for the next 10 years. The big money was coming from political motivators and economical tycoons involved with hotels and the tourism / manufacturing trade.
There has been no money given to the Foundation from a Scientific Organization or body of Academics and Professional Scientists in good standing in the field of Archaeology or Natural Sciences. No money invested from even a Foundation that supports World Heritage or Cultural History. Unless now, this Russian is going to give of his private funds. If there were actual ruins of a pyramid, there would be ample evidence excavated by now for such funding on an international basis for preservation of the site. This is not happening.
The words are carefully chosen, as in the legal field. He stated, "the structures in Visoko are not natural formations". WHAT structures? It is a play on words as there is no definition. That phrase is wide open for interpretation. He does not use the term pyramid. He could be referring to some of the old fort ruins, but, that is not determined in the language. The Foundation of the Sun has many times used loose language to convey their propaganda, as the wording is so general, a common person reading it will be mislead into believing what the foundation wants them to believe in. In a court of law, that phrase would be challenged to a direct statement for meaning and content. It would be argued in a court of law as to what defines actual structures of what remains.
Quote from
Bosnian Pyramid Redux
Posted August 30th, 2007 by Greg
Bosnian Redux - DG, GT
"It is also why on July 9, 2007, members of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, headed by Premier Nedzad Brankovic, paid a visit to the various sites and unanimously gave their full support to the foundation and its research project. It means that from 2008 onwards, the foundation will be allowed access to state funding; so far, the work has been largely carried out by private donations and sponsorship – and good will."
There is debate over what good will will come. There is an abundance of articles that have been written and more will soon to come.
Permission granted on January 9th 07, to Dr. Colette M. Dowell by Sylvie Květinová, Administrator for EAA,
for reprint on Circular Times Website.
THE EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION OF ARCHAEOLOGISTS - (EAA)
has written an article on their website about Semir Osmanagic and his hoaxing of pyramids.
Open Protest Letter to the Bosnian Government
SCIENCE MAGAZINE HAS WRITTEN ANOTHER ONE ALSO.
DECLARATION
“We, the undersigned professional archaeologists from all parts of Europe, wish to protest strongly at the continuing support by the Bosnian authorities for the so-called “pyramid” project being conducted on hills at and near Visoko. This scheme is a cruel hoax on an unsuspecting public and has no place in the world of genuine science…….”
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE DECLARATION
http://www.e-a-a.org/statement.pdf
This article was written by Doug Weller in October of 2006.
Bosnian Pyramids --
Extraordinary Claims Need Extraordinary Evidence
By Mr. Doug Weller © 2006
Dear Dr. Dowell,
Although I am by no means a professional archaeologist I do have both academic and practical experience of archaeology as well as a good general academic background which I think has equipped me with the skills needed to understand research in a variety of fields. Those who know me know that I consider myself a skeptic, which to me means that all ideas, be they ‘sacred cows’ or radical new ideas, require the application of reason and the existence of convincing and agreed evidence. I’ve followed Semir Osmanagic’s Bosnian pyramid claims since they were first announced in the international press in 2005. I’ve watched the story develop and have tried to find out as much as I can about the various claims of different experts and have been fortunate to be in direct contact with some of the people who have either been directly involved or who have been there.
Because of my knowledge of similar claims, particularly where there are ‘interesting’ geological features involved, plus Osmanagic’s own statements about the Maya, Atlantis, and aliens, I will admit that I felt that such extraordinary claims were going to need really extraordinary evidence.
I have read the many articles that have been posted about Bosnia and Semir Osmanagic on your site. I’ve been looking at some of the photographs of Semir’s slide show or power point presentation and am fascinated by what they display and what Semir advertises.
Let me start by saying that there is nothing wrong with fund raising for an archaeological dig. My questions are about how the fundraising is being done and what it is for.
For convenience I will just list the slides with numbers and sub-titles.
Please click on thumbnails to enlarge pictures.
Slide 1 - Option B.
I look at this and think 'ok, protection/restoration, check. Economy, scientific exchange, check, who could be against them? Bosnian adventure, tiny country, civilizational face, archaeological giant. Hmm, alarm bells start chiming softly.
Slide 2 - Ancient Writings --Inscriptions.
Monoliths? Writing? Whoa, whoa! Who has seen more than one 'monolith'? [Note that since Doug Weller originally wrote this letter more monoliths and writing have been claimed after Dr. Dowell and Dr. Schoch came out with their reports of the fraudulent inscriptions on the tunnel monolith --there will be more links added soon to these papers.] Who has seen any writing? Remember, writing isn't just a symbol or two. Writing means putting readable symbols/characters together to make something that can be read. Nothing like that has been found, and the inscriptions that have been found on *one* monolith have been challenged.
Slide 3 - First European Archaeological park.
This is even more misleading. Nothing like the pictures here have been found, nothing that even looks as though it might look like those pictures has been found.
Slide 4 - Pyramid of the Sun.
Restore and protect 4 different cultures? Bosnia, the tallest pyramid in the world? Respect Bosnia’s authentic past and respect will come to Bosnia for future generations. Restore --hang on a minute here; how can something be restored when no evidence is present that it exists? Protect? There has been no protection of the archeological sites in Visoko. The excavations are endangering and destroying valuable layers of earth undoubtedly containing artifacts of previous authentic cultures.
There is something twisted about all of this. This is beginning to smell like a real con game. This brings me back to question OPTION B;
Semir is asking people to invest in what?
1. Carving up hills to make the natural geology look like pyramids and roadways. I've been complaining since the start about the inappropriate use of digging machinery, which is neither protecting nor restoring the archaeology but is more likely destroying the real archaeology to create something that will indeed be manmade, but made by Osmanagic.
2. Scientific Exchange - we shall see. So far scientific reports are being dismissed by Osmanagic if they are not in favour of his claims. Bosnia's reputation will not be enhanced, indeed it will be made worse, if this proves to be a pipedream. Nationalism is the enemy of archaeology. The reputation of Japanese archaeologists was badly damaged when it was discovered that amateur archaeologist Fujimura Shinichi had been faking Paleolithic finds to prove that Japan's Paleolithic past had started earlier than anywhere else in Asia. Fujimura's amazing finds had attracted a lot of public support. The government named some of his sites as national historical sites, the Agency for Cultural Affairs sponsored exhibitions, etc. Local authorities used his finds to create tourist attractions, etc, all in aid of the local economy and claims that their areas went back hundreds of thousands of years. Obviously there are some important differences between the two situations (one being that we haven't reached a conclusion to the Bosnian saga yet and Osmanagic may well, probably does, believe in Bosnian pyramids, unlike Fujimura). However, part of what drove Fujimura's success was nationalism, and nationalism is often the enemy of scientific archeology.
3. European archaeological park - as I've said, that drawing is extremely misleading.
'Pyramid of the Sun' -Does this look like a pyramid?
4. Pyramid of the Sun in Bosnia - What pyramid? What quality of respect will Bosnia and its youth gain by this? Osmanagic has put the cart before the horse. He has decided that there are pyramids there and rejects anything that might suggest there are no pyramids.
If Osmanagic was inviting people to invest to find out what was there, that might be one thing.
But he isn't.
He is telling them what is there, he is creating his own archaeology as he goes along.
This is neither honest nor scientific.
Meanwhile there is not enough money to properly investigate the real and fascinating archaeology of Bosnia. For instance, only 7km from this site is what may be the largest Neolithic village in Europe. John Bohannon, writing in Science Magazine, 22 September 2006, said, “Over the past 4 years, a team led by Kujundzic-Vejzagic and Johannes Müller, an archaeologist at the University of Kiel, Germany, has been exploring a site near the town of Okoliste, 7 km away from the pyramid hunt. It has been identified as part of the Butmir culture, a source of richly decorated pottery and intricate statuettes discovered in 1893. Research on these artifacts and related 7000-year-old dwelling sites could help answer one of the central questions of prehistoric archaeology, says Müller: ‘How and why did we go from simple, egalitarian societies of small settlements to complex, hierarchical societies with big, dense settlements?’ But this project is in danger because of the Pyramid Phenomenon -- not just because of funding, but, as Bohannon says, ‘..Kujundzic-Vejzagic says she is on the verge of quitting. She says she's been the target of hate mail from the pro-pyramid movement; no one in government has stepped forward to defend her.’ If she goes, the entire Butmir project will probably fold.”
What Osmanagic is doing is probably good for the local tourist industry and may be boosting Bosnia's self-image in the short term. But, a tourist industry or self-image based on what isn't really there won't last. Visocica hill has some fascinating stuff --not just the ruins of the medieval Royal city, but quite possibly evidence that it was turned into a defensive position during the Neolithic period. Let's see the real archaeology of Bosnia explored and look at its potential. The authentic, the true archaeology of Bosnia’s history is where the respect will be gained.
I have found the comments and articles that the two of you have written before, during and after your trip to Bosnia have given me valuable insights into what is happening there, perhaps all the more useful as they haven’t come from what some might see as members of the establishment. The many photographs have been particularly useful in clarifying a number of issues, and I hope to see a fuller report on the geology at some future date.
Mr. Doug Weller
Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Thanks to Dr. Colette Dowell for providing photographs and graphics for my paper.
CIRCULAR TIMES
An International Networking Educational Institute
Intellectual, Scientific and Philosophical Studies
Copyright © 1995, 2005, 2006, 2007
Dr. Colette M. Dowell
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net