Michael Shermer's latest Skeptic column in Sci-Am quotes social psychologist Philip Zimbardo (he of the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment), on the psychology of Abu Ghraib torturers:
Staff Sergeant Ivan 'Chip' Frederick — the military police officer in charge of the night shift on Tiers 1A and 1B, the most abusive cell blocks at Abu Ghraib - "was an all-American patriot, a regular churchgoing kind of guy who raises the American flag in front of his home, gets goose bumps and tears up when he listens to our national anthem, believes in American values of democracy and freedom, and joined the army to defend those values.
The quote is meant as a qualification that Frederick was psychologically 'normal' or 'good'. To me though, 80% of what is called 'patriotism' is really a fundamentalist belief system, and could therefore actually qualify an individual as having abnormal psychology. Far from the intention, the quoted passage actually suggests to me that Frederick was prime fodder for a 'de-evolution' into torture and abuse (contra to the intent of painting him as a 'good guy').
Fundamentalist belief allows people to ignore logic, as the belief supercedes all, and allows the individual to rationalise their actions via that belief system. To me, the 'patriotism' of Frederick is likely a contributing factor to his blind acceptance of torture as the right way forward - ie. if it can save American lives/values, then it can be rationalised as a good thing.
I bring this up, because I don't think it's a case restricted to Ivan Frederick...
It is all to hell our government
That I believe is the state of propaganda and yes to feed the sheep a value system. I too think that type of personality I easily swayed and manipulated. It is a personality that is yearning for devotion, thus a form of bonding, nurturing and love. It is ready to act as it is commanded to as to seek acceptance -- and at all cost, and to surely be admired for his/her duties. It is illogical of course.
Today, I had policeman call me from out of state and interrogate me. Some one had told them I said their Commissioners were going to get bombed …I said, “What? What was this all about??? I was told I was being tape recorded and I might get arrested and face the “Judge,” a 25,000$ fine and 10 years in prison for making that statement. I told the Officer I did not say that and he continued on and said something about the Patriot act and terrorism. I got terror inside of me while this man said this to me and my heart was racing and I started to feel trauma again and my mind started getting fried and my world was all wrong and I had visions of freaky things coming to pass and I just had to shut down and mediate and ask my God to please take the negativity all away, I am so very tired of it all.
How is that one person can say something that has no merit, just off their cuff, to a policeman and then I get accused of saying something and then be under investigation for some terrorist act? That is pure terror. I was falsely accused of this and now am dealing with my legal aids, this is bullcrap. America has gone to hell and the people in it. I find my self feeling less and less inclined to be associated with any human right now, I feel I can trust no one. If I am not being attacked by some weirdo in Egypt for some crap that is delusional I am being accused of being a terrorist and facing the Judge….Supposedly I will know in a few days he said…right…I voluntarily faxed him emails…..great…I should have just hung up, but, no, I am honest…. yeah great…America the beautiful. Makes me sick what is going on with this country and what has happened to our society and what our government is doing to other countries—good grief, it is so bad, I just want to hide anymore. But, I have been trying to be positive and not dwell on negative matters that are just lies and pure crap, no truth and pure hell.
I am really upset and mad about this. It is like I am guilty before I am innocent. I have worked in Law for over 14 years, and I have seen some so called defendants and have investigated and profiled their case. Most of the accused are innocent and have been set up and falsely accused of a crime that some one else has committed. When you know the person that has accused you of such crimes to ward off the law from their situation, what ever it may be, it is most unnerving. Terror, yes, I have been living in it. I live in the United States.
Thank you Greg for posting this. Sorry, but, I read this and it hit a nerve with me, just hours after I have taken the call of being accused of being some terrorist, yeah, right…..In God WE Trust………..
SO, if I do not post here in the next week or there is a long period of time I am gone that is what has happened to me, I have been taken away. This is no joke. A person has set me up again and this time it is very bad.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
indeed
First, I don't know any of the people responsible for the torture, so I can't make any particular judgement about particular people.
Having said that, the quote suggests that people like this patriot are suffereing from TB, as in True Believerism. As long as you do things out of the true belief for the good of the cause, your actions can be excused.
But that is quite common, isn't it?
We see this in the military, in everyone's military.
We see this in the terrorists of course.
We see this in families. If you murder someone to save the "famliy honor", that is good or at least excusable.
We see this in team sports. In soccer, ice hockey, field hockey, you name it - a player commits a foul that gives an advantage to your team, then it's ok.
He was a son of a bitch, but he was our son of a bitch. (of course women can be just as guilty)
Someone tell me a culture where this does not happen.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
Patriotism
Good morning everyone,
Greg, I think Milgram talked us a lot about how authority can make us believe our behaviour can be justified. In a way, I think we suffer a subtle form of this in the way we accept the 'authority' of globalisation and consumer culture. We're unable to see it as ideology, or other than normal. Does that make it abnormal in some sense?
Okay, this is light compared to torture, but if we can see the mechanism at work in its mild forms, does it tell us something of it in the extreme?
Patriotism was mentioned. If this comes in a form of absolute belief in a culture, nation, etc, then it can lead to similar abnormal psychology, certainly. But there is another form of patriotism that should be mentioned.
When you look at a national flag, for instance, if it embodies everything in that nation, watch out, but if it is a communal symbol for elements that nation stands for, then this is mild patriotism, but equally 'heroic', if that's the right word.
Talk to old soldiers and ask them why they fought as they did. For the flag, yes, but it represented the pint on a night, the love of their children, the football terraces, or cricket and warm beer.
Individuals brought into a community for shared values rather than blatant ideology. That kind of patriotism is, I think, noble.
...
I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
Thoughts
Hi Anthony,
Thanks for your thoughts. It could be, equally, that I'm the one with the abnormal psychology (my siblings are standing in the back corner nodding no doubt). I just can't make the logical leap between loving things about the place you live, and the people around you, and your lifestyle - and weeping when you see the flag. I see amazing things in people and places from around the world, so why would I puff up with pride at the sight of my own flag? It's a an accident of birth and geography really...I could just as easily be Irish as I am Australian.
I can understand patriotism as something to use within your life, and have fun with (eg. sports barracking). I also know that I would fight for my family and my property if threatened. But it wouldn't have anything to do with patriotism.
Like I said, maybe I'm the abnormal one. Perhaps I should be overflowing with emotion about my community and the piece of dirt that I live in. I just don't get it.
Kind regards,
Greg
-------------------------------------------
You monkeys only think you're running things
Patriotism
Hi Greg,
I don't weep over my flag, but I do feel British. Maybe that's just simple upbringing, I don't know. It doesn't mean that I can't see myself as a 'global' human being as well.
But the point I was making is I can understand how, when someone is trying to take away everything you believe in, you cling to your identity as a collective symbol to rally a defence.
The old soldiers would call it patriotism - and I think it is. But it can also be basic altruism.
By the way, I KNOW I'm abnormal.
...
All the philosophy in all the world is not worth the spilling of a drop of blood.
Anthony North
To me it is a bad and weak mind
I think as Greg does, that there is something very wrong with all of that mindset.
I read the article on the experiments. It seemed to me a modern version of a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde…that Zimbardo man and his earlier colleague creating experiments to see the human threshold of crossing the line into evil, from good.
To me I have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong, I can think for myself most the time. I do not need to read laws or religious beliefs to keep me in linear direction with my morals. I am empathetic, I have compassion, I believe in fair play. I do not believe in shooting some one or abuse that is not warranted, torture as such for those prisoners, the raping and very cruel attack on their Muslim character, no that was very wrong on any level. A prisoner is a prisoner, they are suffering at that point by being away from their unit, the fear of what will happen to the rest of their unit and if they are going to loose the war is in itself a torture and plenty at that I would think.
People who enter the military have different reasons for enlisting. Most of the ones that are in the military now are enlisting because they are being promised education and money. They are being targeted at poverty level towns and those who lack education, as in college ( I do not know if you need to be a high school graduate any more to enlist) . Patriotism the definition of it today is not the same as it was when doctrines were bring written up by our so called forefathers. WE do not live in a democracy, it is a dictatorship, the values these military people are defending are not those of a democracy, but those that have been redesigned to benefit the “Emperor” and his/her advisories – in this case, global corporations, oil and banking.
The USA is a hypocrite, the leaders use the past ideals for their modern manipulation of criminal acts. The Constitution has been taken away from us. The average person who watches soap operas and some idol tv thing is not aware of the world around them, but are being programmed into a state of illusions, they then begin to identify with the characters there are watching and the subliminal passages incorporated in the tv and radio. Songs are written to persuade, advertisements and slogans about how it is to be manly to join the military; that is all false. TO suggest a man would be more masculine and worldly at the age of 18 if he were to enlist in the military so he may “See the world” is being lied to. These young persons male or female are too young emotionally to make proper choices, as if they were mature, they would easily see the deception in the marketing practices of the enlisting agents. They would also have a more keen eye of the truths around them and make better decisions. I do not think they have enlisted very intelligent ones, maybe for the video games, but not for the front line.
Another thing is the generation to day and of the Gulf War were brought up with violent video games, killing and shooting the enemy. Their skills were highly refined and the psyche distorted to the point of killing something on a monitor is nothing at all. The military then takes this mind set that has been programmed and place them in front of more monitors, however during war time, these monitors are live and the throttle they are tweaking is real and dead people and buildings are born. It is all very fine tuned and addressed towards a certain mentality that is already able to be manipulated, the military is a target for those who are addicted to the drama of the enemy. The patriotism is a lie and distortion of the fact, but the young people are not aware of this as they have never experienced life with out the bull. The definition of true Patriotism has been redefined in modern times.
We have a mixed and diverse culture here with generations. I am from the 60s, I am appalled at the war and wonder why many are not protesting it as we did in our youth. But, you see, we have restraint put on us, like the Patriot Act 1 and 2….I do not even know all of the laws governed by it. I am now experiencing the wrath of it due to some crazy person. So, where is the law when a person with a history of mental disorders is believed over a person who has none? Where in the world has that ever been enforced? The scapegoat is the mental person, the victim is the person who has the morals and ethics, but, are being shot down by US agents in pursuit of terrorism. – But it is make believe and all made up, the terrorism is an excuse for fines and imprisonment and to shut a person up who is aware of the wrongs, to knock out as many people who are fighting the new system as they can so the remaining society is contained in a specific threshold, they are categorized and placed like icons in a computer. This group is of mindset to perform this task, this group is able to perform with this other window and so on. In the end, every person who enlists or is enlisted is of an innate weak emotional self love state I believe. They are looking for direction and commands over their life. Or they are seeking a buried desire to kill and lust over another person, have control, it is a power move. Military is related to power. People who are in the military have a personal view of themselves as having some power over another person; and then there is the pecking order of it all the way to the President.
People in most every society who sees a person in uniform has a tendency to bow before their commands. This has also been embedded as a control mechanism in societies, the visual affect of seeing a uniform….it brings to mind power and nothing more….A negative power as in threat to one’s life, so the person who sees the uniform will bow down and do as commanded. I believe all in all, those who are in the military have a deep FEAR in them of others and they are protected by the military and can also use their own devices to gain control over others. I really think it is a weird thing, power issues and a lack of self identity. What it is , is really scary …that is the control, the fear that is empowered in a person due to the horrific news and propaganda.
In kindergarten, I never could understand why I had to place my hand over my heart and say the Pledge of Allegiance….to what? I was too young to understand government. That was programming at an early age, a form of brainwash. At that time, I was very interested in Russia as I was told it was very bad and they were like Martians. For me to ever see Russia was like me landing on the Moon. I really was interested in this other culture and why was it that we were not allowed to discuss them. They were humans too, I could never understand why we were being told they were evil and the “Ruskies” were coming. I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada with Nellis Air force Base, Beatty Test Site, flying formations, test bombs blowing off every other day, a self survival kit and sirens screaming for “take cover”…You always knew when a bomb went off as the chandeliers would swing…I lived in a form of wartime all my developing youth. I lived in fear, and you know what, I still have that in me. In all truth, I suppose I never feel safe….actually, I really do not and probably never will, the scarring of war runs so deep in my psyche. But, I have been to Russia now and it was one of the best times in my entire life…I made it to the Moon.
Well, those are just a few of my thoughts only….just my perception, and I am not saying I am totally correct.
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Russia
I personally have known people who left Russia and the satellite states during the cold war. I know why they left their home countries, and what was done to them. What was done to them was criminal, and for no good reason other than personal power trips of members of the communist parties.
I have been to Romania a couple of times, and I could still see how the Russian-imposed communist government there has wrecked a beautiful country.
So I really don't have any great respect for the beautiful world the Russians (in the guise of the Soviet Union) were trying to build. It was all about Russian imperialist power. And watch it, it will be about that again.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
Russia
Hi Earthling,
I was in the RAF during the height of the Cold War, working on fighter bases, the UK's first defence. We exercised constantly, against air attack, subversive raids and nukes. It got quite frightening at times.
I have no doubts about the dangers of Russia. They could change tomorrow - democracy there is very fragile - if it ever existed.
But this said, much of the problem here can be answered by joint psychology. There are no natural barriers to invasion other than the Russian winter. They have almost a pathological fear of invasion, substantiated by Viking, Mongol adn Messers Napoleon and Hitler.
I fear that the west is ill-prepared militarily to meet a renewed threat, but also realise that a gentler approach to Russia could reap benefits. But no, NATO expands eastwards - the EU does the same ... threateningly ...
...
I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
threaten ?
We can't continue to excuse the paranoia in Russian society with Mongol invasions that happened before there was a Russia.
Russia is still the largest country in the world by far. They have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out everyone on the planet, and them some. What do they have to be afraid of? Nobody in their right mind can attack them. Estonia? What a joke.
I don't think you can say that NATO expands in a threatening way towards Russia itself.
There are many countries that used to be part of the Russian empire against their will. These countries joined NATO because they don't trust Russia and with good reason.
What Putin wants now is to claim those countries again as the Russian sphere of influence. That is not done out of fear, it is done out of imperialist ambition.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
Imperialist ambition
Whether imperialist ambition or paranoia, I agree the threat is there. This is not in doubt. But there's imperial ambition to the east, imperial ambition to the west, and pawns inbetween.
It was always thus. Does it always have to be thus?
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I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
not new
Indeed it is not new.
Does it have to be this way? I would hope not, but I don't know how to get there.
My ideal world would be one of many small countries, without real borders. With free mobility for people who don't like it where they are. A benevolent globalism if you want. If one of the small country does things wrong, their good people would just leave.
I just don't know how we can get there. Also I don't know that it would be a stable situation.
There was something a little like this just before the peak of the nation states, when large trading companies (English and Dutch) were more powerful than the governments. But I think the life of the individual at the time is mostly romanticized these days.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
In Russia a moment in my life
Hello,
I have read all of the posts, a very interesting discussion here. WHen I was speaking of Ruskies I meant the average perosn, not the Russian Government. I spent over a month in Russia from St. Petersburg to the Caspian Sea, this was when Russia was crashing and the banks were closed, I think in 1998??? I ate caviar fresh from the sturgeon of the sea, i drank a lot of vodka.
I spent 85 % of my time with locals, old and young. I saw the many cities and villages that went through the centuries of war and how they changed by being rebuilt and too, left to rats. I saw huge monumental iron (or what ever metal it was )sculptures towering over the Volga with great strength and pain. I learned a lot about the history ( forgot it now somewhat) the people surely suffered, the Zhars ( can't spell that)and government swooped in on them -- all of this I listened to, it was their life, it was as much of them as their own blood. Yes, I am aware of the corruption, I just meant the people, just normal people that were living in the villages, going to mass, lighting candles and praying, the person on the dock who was wroking the boats, the crew on the boat I was on, the musicians that were playing on site, and traveling with me, the average person, they were like you and me.
There was no money there, the banks were shut down and CLinton happened to be visiting. I ran into him at the Kremlin and I almost got shot by one of those monkeys in the trench coats for trying to walk across a road that was leading into the government section while i was looking for the entrance to the metro, it came in from a different place then in Red Square, I was lost. I Was trying to ask this guard or what ever he was where the entrance was, I was walking across the black paved road, there were three men, each of them raised there long guns at me and were pointing, I put my hands up in teh air, I thought "Shit" "Shit.." "I am in Russia -- that's right.".....My cameras were on my neck, I had two of them, I had a back pack on and euro style hippie clothes, I was obviously a tourist. I said to them, " NO, NO, don't shoot!!!"...."Where is the metro, metro." They only said, "Back, back!!!" so I walked backwards with my hands in the air. I was thinking this was a bunch of crap after I had just been inside the museums and all and had a very pleasent experience. Well, I heard this noise, I looked to my left, there was some black motorcycles coming up the narrow black road and some large limosines. When they passed but only a feet few in front of my face, I saw CLinton, he was looking dierctly at me, we locked eyes as he drove past and went another 40 feet down the road and made the turn at the fountain. I was thinking, "Holy shit???".....After he went by, the gaurds then walked up to me, I was shaking, they were then very nice. They could not speak English though, but, I used my hands to motion the metro and the water dock, I had to catch my boat. They smiled and pointed the way and I walked on. But, I was thinking how ther perosonality had changed. When the entourage was making way down the avenue they were in character of monkeys in trench coats, when they completed their act, they were just like a friendly people helping one in need.
I was not able to change money there, only a few times and a few dollars. I ate cabbage and drank vodka the whole time I was there. When I was on the boat I did receive meals a few times that consisted of potatos, cabbage, meat and vodka....vodka, vodka, vodka. When in a few small villages and walking around I asked where the local bars were where the natives hung out. I met the real people, I felt the real sorrow of the Russians as they listend to folk rock Ruskie grade music and drank their cheap vodka and danced ---I danced too.
A lot of chocolate was being ate in Russia I noticed, that was a gift that was shared among many. When I came upon a rare moment of locating a bakery, I would buy a chocloate torte and bring it to the crew of the ship and after all of the other passengers on board would be asleep, we would drink vodka, vodka, vodka and play music, dance and eat choclate tortes. It was good.
I was in a catherdral, a small one, a preist came to me, he was blind and was wearing a very tall hat. He gave me some of their incence and the little white candles, he placed his hands on my face and he said soem words. There was a lady there dressed in a typicla black gown, she siad he told me I was like the mother and she had tears in her eyes and she bowed to me, I thought of Egypt when I was there and the ladies who did the same when I healed that baby. I was tripping in the catherdral, like, wow, this is my life, I was also given soem very nice reproductions of the icons in teh cathedral and a picture of the mother. I wanted to give them soem money, but, they would not take it. The lady said they were gifts for me and not for sale. I cried, it was beautiful and very sureal. I walked outside the catherdral to look back as I wandered back to my boat, it was a old cathedral, very old. I looked at the shattered houses near by and the depth of poverty. Through all of this there was a smile, the smile of the people, that is what enriched me. I left that small village in a greater spiritual frame of mind than when I had entered it. It was a true moment of some revelation to me I still have not quite figured.
Yes, there is always the governmental element, but, if you choose to look, there is also the human element. That is what I choose to see, I educate myself on all areas I am able, but, the time I spend in foreign countries I try to spend it with locals, just the common simple folk. I deal enough with the hotshots, that like to cream the crop up, but, I am also weary of them, I am buisness minded, they really can not snow me or impress me (just do not shoot me!)-- I really do not care for them. SO, my experience of Russia was a mix of gold and vodka, music and dancing, spirit and architecture, penny less and fortuitive. It was well worth the journey to meet up with these Martians that I was told so long ago were hurtful to me. No, THEY were not, it was their masters, not them.
Yeah, so fuss about the governments, yeah do it, all you want, beat them up, I hate them all...but, I admire the common folk, the real people. Screw all governments, to hell with them I say!!!!
FIGHT ---- passively - smile and hold hands.
Hope you can read my writing, I am not on MS.
XC
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
I forgot, what about Putin? Oh and Bosnia too !!!!
What is going on with him, and the oil stuff. I figured when I was in Bosina, the interstates and the hotles they want to build through Bosnia for the "pyramid" were really to transport huge euquipment to house workers that might be working on some pipeline for oil. There were too many politicians and foreign investors, that pyramid was obviosuly fake. There was much scandla in the streets aobut the war still and they were also digging up mass graves neaerby one of the places I visited, I cannot pronunce it. But, I would bet anything that there is soemthing going on with a route there, it is accesible through the valleys of the mountains. There were many many Russian elite and politicians. What would Russian politicians have in common with a toruisto carnival grade pyramid hill? What was the deal? Those are the things I saw that got my attention, beyond the hoaxed carving, it was the politcal sector...Oil I was thinking, routes for heavy equipment....what better way to disguise the real reason for interstates and hotels in the middle of no where???? You tell me, what is up please. Semir is also licensed with teh American Department of Defense too as a contractor for metal ...big bucks that boy....and , he knew about the Bosnian war before it started and got out, started working in TEXAS , wiht his DOD license and metla workshop fabricating...Hmmmm, a little suspicious to me , huh? This was by means of his father who is a politican sort of guy in Bosnia and very wealthy...into the big economical gains of Bosnia...all the bad boys of Bosnia, they say...
Oh, this is very sick, more propaganda on Verizon, my server...Now new reports on more terrorist acts...great...Here is the link. WHat a bunch of hooey.
Aaaaaah
http://kevxml2adsl.verizon.net/_1_P7ITO1...
Terror Threat Against U.S. Said Serious
By KATHERINE SHRADER and ANNE FLAHERTY
Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON - The terrorist network Al-Qaida will likely leverage its contacts and capabilities in Iraq to mount an attack on U.S. soil, according to a new National Intelligence Estimate on threats to the United States.
The declassified key findings, to be released publicly on Tuesday, were obtained in advance by The Associated Press.
The report lays out a range of dangers - from al-Qaida to Lebanese Hezbollah to non-Muslim radical groups - that pose a "persistent and evolving threat" to the country over the next three years. As expected, however, the findings focus most of their attention on the gravest terror problem: Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network.
AND BLABLABLA....
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
The people
Hi Colette,
Let me make it clear, when I talk about Russians, or Muslims or any other people, I am talking about the minority of fools who think they can rule the world. Yes, absolutely, the vast majority of people, of all colour, race or creed, are basically the same - good people who just want to get on with their lives.
But this is an impossibility, for this small minority will always rise. That's why I think 'thinking' is so important today. Intellectually, we're standing still, and this allows the 'fools' to rise as much as too much thinking did in the past.
I look forward - perhaps in vain - to a time when influence rules the world rather than power.
...
Old propaganda saying from World War Two:
'A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at both ends.'
Unfortunately, though, they still tried to kill each other.
Anthony North
The minority
Yes, that is a problem, seems like the masses do not want to think too much. But, does the average person have the intelligence to think on a level that includes mass agenda? Or are the masses just being led astray by lack of education these days? Like, so they are kept ignorant and do not develop the reasoning faculties and comprehension factors in their brain. I suppose it does need to be exercised. Education is lacking, it is not the quality it use to be and many poeple are illiterate when they graduate from an American highschool now. THey may have the potential to think and be smart, but, if they are not exposed to higher learning processes and directed to do so, they can be kept in a cage and controlled. I think that is what is happening. No education, then propaganda for mind control. I may be wrong.
I hope though it is influence of reasoning, just and right action , not influence of power of greed and dominance.
Thank you for clarifying what you meant, I thought you meant the whole society.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Robert Schoch Website
Hi Colette,
I was amazed that the sort of stuff you describe earlier on this post could happen. Then I went to visit Circular Times and read about the crazy email saga (I'm afraid I haven't been following too closely here for a few weeks, so I may have missed the posts).
Do you know about the status of left paw of the Sphinx? Has any excavating or investigation taken place in regard to that. I very much like reading Egyptology books, but tend to do most of my reading in language, gods and symbolism rather than alternate history.
I've been quite struck by archeo-astronomy theories too (had the privilege of reading one of Greg Taylor's earlier papers comparing the symbolism of the constellation Orion to the political symbols of early pharaohs, particularly as depicted on the palette of Narmer). I don't know whether Greg ever published that paper - I expect that he placed it on the Grail at some point.
Anubis2
drugs and minorities
One problem is that the minorities causing these problems are not very small minorities. I would say we are looking at somewhere from 5% to 20% or the population, depending on the time and place.
And these people are all high on the same drug: control.
The worst dictatorship is powerless without an army of henchmen. And I don't mean just police, secret informants and armies. I mean the little bureaucrats and teachers. Middle management and mid level labor union functionaries. Ordinary, average people on a power trip. They are a big part of these kinds of problems.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
Very true
Very true, but wouldn't they disappear, or become inert, if the tiny fraction of the leadership wasn't there to direct them?
...
Reality, like time, is relative to the observer
Anthony North
sometimes not
There is inertia in these systems. After some decades of communism for example, the lower level groups still have local control. They were not directly controlled by the top level leaders anyway. So they continue more or less what they did before, with a different justification.
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meetings, n.:
Where minutes are kept, and hours are lost.
Validity
Yes, but this would happen anyway. There are always Jobsworths around. But the degree to which they operate or control is dependent upon the ideological validity invested in the tiny hierarchy. Take this away and they'd still be Jobsworths, but their actual power would still decline.
By the way, when I say take away ideological validity, I don't mean replacing it immediately with another excuse, as happened in Russia after 89.
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I'm fantical about moderation
Anthony North
Ooooppppps
Looks like I never logged out, sorry.
Hello Anubis, glad to see you join our discussion, I really like this one, it is very different, one that needs to be - thanks Greg, great topic to start...
The SPhinx is just as it was and nothing has changed. NOthing. All that happend was what happend years ago and there has been no progress that I know of.
Yes, well, things have been very tuff. Just know that I have been an honest perosn, done my best and what ever rumours start to fly otherwise are now being instigated from the party who is responsible for this terrorist crap and is trying to deflect any responsiblitiy for their actions against me,and their own self inflicted pains. This is a different party then the eamil frauds and identity theft against me...Yeah, I must be popular eh? NOw back to the topic of this original posting ---
SO what was it that happened in 89? Is that part of the wall coming down? I thought that was in Berlin, but, was that part of what was going on in Russia too, with Gorby? The split of the communistic party or what is it's real title??? PLease elaborate for us who are unsure of what all that means. What does Jobsworths mean? I have not heard that term much. Are teachers Jobworths or what are they considered?
Teachers are looked upon as authoritive people in some arenas and hold their own form of power, they teach our youth too and that is very scary. The average teacher is(oh god, I am not insulting any one I hope, no one here is a teacher are they? Except for Ole Osc, but, I am not sure what he is --hi Osc!) right there in the middle of things in a way. THe standards that are set at the time in society and government are then taught to the youths of our nations. Educational systems have been used for eternity as well as religious "Bible Thumpers" or "Koran Keepers" ( I am speaking about the fanatics,not the real seekers of light)to speak morals, values and ettiquette, what is acceptable behaviour of the time. Some educational institutions have their private funding and private agendas and are usually those of the corrupt; the figure heads of large corporate gang operations such as the Oil Barons and World Bankers - THe Stock Jocks. Remember Hitler and the Nazis making the children march in formation and stand and salute during physical therapy class,,,(China too)well to me the Pledge of Allegiance is about the same thing, honouring a belief system that has a mascot or insignia driving the machine. ( I notice Greg has little stars up here on the site - we are subliminally being programed with sacred geometry and Greg's brain -HAIL GRAIL--huuuuunt!!!) School breeds sheep in volumes like a farm. The abnormal mindset is given a diploma for memorising the facts that are given to it, the facts needed to drive the mentality machine of the warlords, the mentality of the Fuhrer, so every one will march in line and pay those taxes to finance their madness.
Minorities in America are not really minorites they are the middle to low class folk of all nationalites. WHen I lived in Los ANgeles, I was a white female, a minority in LA (still white and female) everyone else was of colour of some sort.
SO, can any one tell me what is going on with Putin? I am not sure about that, I have not followed too closely.
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Russia
Hi Colette,
The fall of the Berlin Wall was the final nail in the coffin of Soviet communism. The Party and KGB realised this. Hence, by the time of its fall, the top guys simply side stepped into the new security forces and industries. In other words, only the 'facade' changed - the power stayed exactly where it was, its head down, waiting. With Putin - an ex-KGB boss - we're beginning to see it look out again.
By Jobsworth I mean the petty local official or line manager who is quite under confident and lacking in personality. He needs a system above himself to validate himself. He sticks to the rules, and asking him to bend them can elicit responses such as: 'that's more than my job's worth.'
As validity comes from a system, if the system becomes totalitarian, so does he. Any atrocities he commits are the result of the system, not him. Should the system fall, it is him who the locals attack, hence a kind of 'blood fest' when dictators fall. The problem is, with peaceful revolt, they stay in place, as in Russia.
Totalitarianism needs thugs, yes, but at heart it is a system for the insecure. Through it they get validity.
...
I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
Now I understand
Hi Anthony,
THank you for explaining that to me. I heard Putin was ex-KGB too, but, I am not all familiar what is going on in that realm. Jobworths sounds like a funky place to be in a mindset. THis posting is worn out and thin now. Bye
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net