The Israeli government is at it again, finding out new ways to seed their hatred and pull us all into the Abyss..
Stan
********
"Israel Ups the Stakes in the Propaganda War"
Stewart Purvis
Monday November 20, 2006
The Guardian
Following its invasion of Lebanon this summer, Israel was said to have largely lost the PR battle to Hizbullah, but armed with a major web offensive, it's fighting back
Amir Gissin runs what he calls '"Israel's Explanation Department". Which is why it is surprising to hear him admit that many Israelis think "the whole problem is that we don't explain ourselves correctly".
Last week, as al-Jazeera launched an Arab view of the world into English-speaking homes worldwide, Gissin was a man under pressure. At the David Bar Ilan conference on the media and Middle East, he faced an audience of Israelis who were unhappy about the way the propaganda battle with Hizbullah was fought and lost during the war in the Lebanon. They wanted to know how it could be done better next time, because most people in Israel seem to think there will be a next time with Hizbullah soon.
Gissin said the words of his English-speaking spokespeople could not compete with the power of the pictures of civilians killed in the Israeli attack on Lebanese towns like Qana. And the Israeli parliament will not spend the money on an Israeli counterpart to al-Jazeera.
[the little issue of the indiscriminate and conscious murder of civillians seems to be irrelevant]
But Gissin was not down-hearted. He declared there to be a "war on the web" in which Israel had a new weapon, a piece of computer software called the "internet megaphone".
"During the war we had the opportunity to do some very nice things with the megaphone community," he revealed at the conference. Among them, he claimed, was a role in getting an admission from Reuters that a photograph of damage to Beirut had been doctored by a Lebanese photographer to increase the amount of smoke in the picture. This was first spotted by American blogger Charles Johnson, who has won an award for "promoting Israel and Zionism".
To check out the power of the megaphone, I logged onto a website called GIYUS (Give Israel Your United Support) last Wednesday afternoon. More than 25,000 registered users of www.giyus.org have downloaded the megaphone software, which enables them to receive alerts asking them to get active online.
It did not take long for an alert to come through. A Foreign Office minister, Kim Howells, had issued a press statement condemning that day's Palestinian rocket attack which killed an elderly Israeli and wounded other civilians. GIYUS wanted site users to "show your appreciation of the UK's response".
One click took me to a pre-prepared email addressed to Dr Howells, and a slot for me to personalise my comment. A test confirmed that the email would arrive at his office, as if I had spotted his comments on a news website, in this case Yahoo, and sent it to him with a supporting message. In the emails, there would be no indication of the involvement of GIYUS, although Howells may have been suspicious that so many people around the world had read the same Yahoo story about him and decided to email him. The Foreign Office confirms that emails were received last Wednesday but will not go into any more detail.
The most popular target of the online activists is the foreign media, especially the BBC, the news organisation which they love to hate. Earlier this year I was a member of the independent panel set up by the BBC governors to review the BBC's coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We reported on the high number of emails we had received from abroad, mostly from North America, and the evidence of pressure group involvement. A majority of email correspondents thought that the BBC was anti-Israel, however if the emails that could be identified as coming from abroad were excluded, the opposite was true - more people thought the BBC anti-Palestinian or pro-Israel.
The BBC has already had one encounter with GIYUS - an attempt to influence the outcome of an online poll. BBC History magazine noticed an upsurge in voting on whether holocaust denial should be a criminal offence in Britain. But the closing date had already passed and the result had already been published, so the votes were invalid anyway. GIYUS supporters claim success elsewhere in "balancing" an opinion poll on an Arabic website by turning a vote condemning Israel's attack in the Lebanon into an endorsement.
For some of Israel's supporters, a primary aim of their war on the web is an attempt to discredit what they see as hostile foreign media reports, especially those containing iconic visual images.
One particular target has been the respected French TV correspondent, Charles Enderlin, whose Palestinian cameraman filmed 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura being shot and killed, as his father tried to shield him at the start of the second intifada. Enderlin accused Israeli troops of shooting and killing the boy. French supporters of Israel went online to claim the report was a distortion based on faked footage. His network, France 2, responded with legal action and, last month, in the first of four individual cases, a French court found the organiser of a self-styled media watchdog website guilty of libel.
Another online target has been the TV footage of bloodshed on a Gaza beach earlier this year. A Palestinian girl was seen screaming as she saw the bodies of dead family members killed by what Palestinians allege was Israeli shellfire. When I mentioned the impact of these pictures at last week's conference, members of the audience shouted "staged".
One person came up to me afterwards to suggest that the family had somehow died somewhere else and that their bodies had been moved to the beach to be filmed. Where, for instance, was all the blood? I pointed out that I had seen everything that the cameraman had shot and that some pictures were too gruesome to be shown.
It is clear that the government of Israel wants to fight back against the impact of foreign media pictures like these. Amir Gissin talked last week of plans to get Israeli video onto sites like YouTube which he said were viewed by opinion "shapers". And his cousin Dr Ra'anan Gissin, formerly Ariel Sharon's media adviser, has endorsed the idea of having picture power at the country's disposal ready for future conflicts. Referring to Israel's opponents, he put it in his usual direct way: "You need to shoot a picture before you shoot them."
Stewart Purvis is professor of Television Journalism at City University in London. He is a former chief executive and editor-in-chief of ITN.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0...
****
Stan
Israel has become the Monster
It sought to escape from. The Palistinian people have become the Jewish people of the German 30's and 40's. And we in the US give them billions of dollars and weapons to kill and maim the inoccent. And block UN resulution after resulution to stop the killing and stealing. 39% of new settlements are built on stolen land. School children and women are killed by Israeli snipers. Sick people are stopped at check points and refused acsess to medical care. And the Wall, Hey East Berlin did you relocate? Evil plain and simple evil.
As for pictures, I remember the picture of the israeli children signing a bomb that was to kill lebanese childern. Teaching your childern hate, how nicely done by god's chosen people! Wow what a great real estate deal thats turn into.
Berlin
The Berlin wall, and in fact the entire fortified western border of East Germany (the DDR) was built to keep their citizens in. It was not there to keep anybody out.
People were killed trying to escape from the DDR. By DDR border guards.
Whether Israels wall on the border to Palestine is in the right place, whether it is justified or not, as nothing to do with the communist government of the DDR turning their country into a jail.
You should think a little more before you post such comments.
What you say is very very offensive.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
and Bladerunner
Bladerunner, I want an answer, when you have the time
your comparison is inexcusable.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
The Wall keeps people in and people out too.
The Paleistians have to go from check point to check point, sometime to get from one part of their personal property to anouther part of their property. They are shot at check points even children because they were seen as a threat though none existed. Water and electricity is scarce and people are dieing of starvation. So you have a genocide,A human rights nightmare. Being shut out from outside aid. The Holy State of Israel committing atrcities. That is what is inexcusable Earthling.
No
Your statement about the Berlin Wall is ignorant as best, or perhaps made with bad intentions.
You are misrepresenting facts, and playing on emotions.
Talk about Israelis and Palestinians, leave Berlin out of it.
Genocide ?? Israel, maybe with no respect for Palestinians, does not try to exterminate the Palestinians.
Look at the numbers of people killed in Darfur, in Bosnia, in Ruwanda, in Cambodia, and many other places. That is genocide.
The Palestinians, and their supposed allies in the Arab world, have to grow up and fix the problem, not blame it on someone else.
There are reasonable solutions for this problem. There are just not enough reasobable people, especially on the Palestinian side.
I want you to take back the comment about the Berlin Wall. That was a very different problem, and you should know that.
Sorry Its still a Wall.
So the Israelis are not the Soviets. Maybe I should compare it to a wall around a WWII Prison Camp.Because the Israelis are using collective punishment on the Palestinians. I'm on the Palestinians side here, or any people who's lives are destroyed for anouthers gain. Gaza has become a prison for those who can not or will not leave their homeland.
party
Obviously you are on the Palestinian side, you posts are Palestinian Authority party line quotations.
A big part of the problem are the Arab "friends" of the Palestinians, who have kept them in refugee camps for almost 50 years.
Not all walls are the same.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Yes I'm on the Palestinians side. Why?
Why? Because the creation of Israel was wrong. A jewish homeland had not exsited for almost 2000 years. Displacing one group of people to give anouther one its land is wrong. Did europe think this would solve their jewish problem or right their unspeakable wrongs? The Bible is a group of bronze age myths. And is not a moral authority for todays realestate deals. ( frankly I can't think of a religion thats not a little crackers,maybe buddhism, but its more of a guide line for living, and does not have a god) Its was a terrible idea and its impact will be felt for prehaps 1000's of more years. We in the west have made a terrible/ghastly mistake. And making more everyday. I will not be browbeaten into an apology because I'm not the bad guy here. Nor do I have the tools to fix this problem. Here in this forum I will not be PC. I will speak my mind. Qui tacet consentit.
perhaps
Perhaps you are proposing the dissolution of the state of Israel, like some on the Palestinian leadership does?
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
And Earthling you would be wrong again.
At this point that would be like giving the Indians Manhattan Island back.
as long
as long as both the Israelis and the Palestinians will end up with a viable state, there is room for discussion between reasonable people. In fact, some of this discussion has taken place over the last 20 years, even though the large number of unreasonable people has made that very difficult.
My only two points were the Berlin wall point, and the genocide point. The Berlin wall was a different case, and the genocide point is a vast overstatement.
Of course I personally object to Rho's opinion that I am not truly human. Most humans would object to that kind of thing.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Megaphony
Earthling
Tut, tut whats this Earthling ? All of a sudden you cant read no more ? Or am i dealing with a zionist here...looks like it. How else should i read your interpretation of my statement. It indeed implies a zionist not being a true human..
In fact, denying is useless Earthling, i know enough of that demonic scripture (talmud) you zionists use to absolve yourselves.
Hitler had it wrong you aren't "untermenschen" but unmenschen ( translation, not subhumans but inhumans).
Dont worry Earthling i'm sure 'megaphone' has plenty to do for you, other places to express your pedantic words.
A matter of choice;
Intimidation, corruption and lies, or serenity, sharing and sincerity.
Rho
You comment was, and I quote:
"You want to be counted as a true human Earthling, than consider the zionist demons to be amongst your worst enemies."
Now that sounds a lot like you are saying, if I don't consider the zionists as my worst enemies, then I don't want to be counted as a true human being.
I am not a zionist, I just don't consider them my worst enemies.
But you apparently jumped to the conclusion that I am a zionist, and then to your next conclusion, that I am inhuman.
I object to being considered subhuman, or inhuman, by anyone. That includes you.
Especially after you say that Hitler was too moderate.
True Humans
Earthling,
A true human recognises evil for what it is earthling, if you don't....
I didnt say Hitler was moderate i said he was wrong. The nazis must have had enough on the largely jewish communist party crimes against humanity (specially christianity) to rightfully pose them as unmenschen. They however were too full of them arian selves.
A matter of choice;
Intimidation, corruption and lies, or serenity, sharing and sincerity.
I see
I see a few things about your arguments.
You are not stupid, and you are probably not crazy.
However you are a mean person. Very mean. And you are full of hate.
Perhaps you are just a troll.
Perhaps you remember "toxilogic", another person who used to post here. You seem to have a similar attitude. Do you know who I mean ?
And I still very much object to you calling me less than human. Stop that. You have no right to judge anyone like that.
Hey can we stop this word war,
and move on. We're just name calling here and are not having a discussion anymore. We're all humans and live on planet earth. We need to remember this basic fact more.
indeed
we have more real things to contribute
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Thread Note
I would advise commenters to wind this thread down. It's not pretty.
Kind regards,
Greg
-------------------------------------------
You monkeys only think you're running things
I agree it is getting too harsh
I will stop this now, after insisting for the last time that I am human. That is enough for me.
A wall remains a wall regardless from which side one is shot.
Hello,
There's a simple solution Earthling, kick all non-semites out... they have no right being there in the first place. You say the zionists dont commit genocide, true, they slowly strangle and demoralise the palistinians, driving them ever deeper into desperation. Maybe you would choose total demoralisation and a slow death , over a zyklon b shower. I for one consider the zionists to be amongst the worlds most evil organisations that scorch the earth. There's no God for them, its a pretext to control a piece of land from where they can go about there evil ways.
Sure there's religious fundis aswell, but they dont count they're just political instruments, for the zionist council, pocketmoney. The zionists have decreed apartheid laws, ignore the UN and do what suits them, and the world lets them.... All because of this alien god, what a backward world. Our socalled leaders that should know better are apparently all afraid, for they seem to believe that they couldnt end zionism in a day... lets wait for Jesus to pick up the tab again.
Btw the original-Torah jews despise the zionists probably even more than i do, but do you ever get to hear about it, hell no, the zionist press control is total, not a blip, thanks to rense i did see a lot of pics from a recent demonstration where tens of thousand protested against zionist Israel.
You want to be counted as a true human Earthling, than consider the zionist demons to be amongst your worst enemies.
A matter of choice;
Intimidation, corruption and lies, or serenity, sharing and sincerity.
Thank You Rho
I agree with you, I too have seen how the torah-jews dislike the zionest. We should better heed what the leaders of the jewish community have to say about Israel. Spiritual people don't worry about gaining kingdoms.
Hmm.
My girlfriend is part Israeli. I have myself some Jewish blood. It is plain that even a lot of Israelis are ignorant of their government's geo-political machinations. (Though I hope I wouldn't stomach living in a State that inflicts the most abject apartheid on a people made refugees in their own land).
The Israeli government and many Israelis in general continually use historical victimhood as a way to buffer themselves from any wrongdoing in the present.(Norman Finkelstein calls it the Holocaust Industry). It is a very useful tactic to cry "anti-semitism" while harbouring a "shoot-to-kill" policy on the Gaza strip for example and many other black-ops that are routinely carried out against the Palestinian population.
Many Jewish people who have woken up to the fact that Israel is a skin-deep democracy are against Zionism and know full well that not only did Zionists and the British conspire to create a Jewish Homeland (which most Jews didn't want) they fermented conflict to systematically reduce the land of the Palestinians.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military which they use to kill more men women and children.
The definition of "Genocide" is as follows:
"A term defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
I'd say that sums up the fits the Palestinian crisis fairly accurately. If folks aren't too sure check out the statistics: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.htm...
Perhaps such actions are spawned from persons like Israeli Prime Minister Menechem Begin whose mentality still lives on in the present Likud cabinet:
"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our
leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."
Zionists are behind much of the political deception of our present times. No other political and ideological grouping has been responsible for so much bloodshed. And the above quote from Begin might give us some indication why this is so.
Stan
Likud?
Likud is not currently the governing party in Israel. Ask Mr Netanyahu.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
True,
Sharon's party Kadima is in power but the Likud pulls the strings. It's all a shell-game. I think most "elections" are nothing of the sort.
Netanyahu...Now there's a scary guy.
Stan
coalition
Kadima and Labor, sort of a grand coalition. Because nobody can get a majority with their electoral system there. Likud is the only big party that is not in government right now.
Strangely enough, it was Begin who made peace with Egypt.And it was Sharon who unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, which many people think was a tactical move to hold on to more of the West bank. But still, Sharon started Kadima to reduce the influence of the real blockheads in Likud, or perhaps the intention was to get rid of Netanyahu.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Thank you for correcting me,
Thank you for correcting me, you're quite right - Kadima and Labor.
I suspect that Begin was making peace with Egypt not for any altrusitic reasons but to disarm opponents before a redoubling of his efforts in his second term in office. This included a huge expansion of Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories and an invasion into Southern Lebanon in '82.
Sharon's "Project independence" might be something to do with the Gaza withdrawal which calls for "permanent annexation and settlement of the West Bank, with 1.3 million Jews, by not later than the year 2010." Sharon I think was far worse than Begin - a primary psychopath if you will.
Stan
Correct
Thank you for correcting me, you're quite right - Kadima and Labor.
I suspect that Begin was making peace with Egypt not for any altrusitic reasons but to disarm opponents before a redoubling of his efforts in his second term in office. This included a huge expansion of Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories and an invasion into Southern Lebanon in '82.
Sharon's "Project independence" might be something to do with the Gaza withdrawal which calls for "permanent annexation and settlement of the West Bank, with 1.3 million Jews, by not later than the year 2010." Sharon I think was far worse than Begin - a primary psychopath if you will.
Stan
Correct
Thank you for correcting me, you're quite right - Kadima and Labor.
I suspect that Begin was making peace with Egypt not for any altrusitic reasons but to disarm opponents before a redoubling of his efforts in his second term in office. This included a huge expansion of Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories and an invasion into Southern Lebanon in '82.
Sharon's "Project independence" might be something to do with the Gaza withdrawal which calls for "permanent annexation and settlement of the West Bank, with 1.3 million Jews, by not later than the year 2010." Sharon I think was far worse than Begin - a primary psychopath if you will.
Stan
Oops.
Eh?? Three posts. Hmm. That's what happens when nothing shows up right away. Patience....
Stan
ok
I will only post once then:)
I think Sharon was a military man who did not care much about casualties on the enemy side. That seems to be the norm in that business, with a few exceptions that came up in the last few decades.
Of course Israel will have to give back almost all the West Bank settlements to get a realistic peace, otherwise the Palestinian state is too fragmented.
Something that is not mentioned much in the media is water. The Palestinians need a better water supply, and a better distribution system. In principle, that is not hard, just expensive. And they don't have money. But they have rich friends, supposedly, in the Arab world. But with enough political pressure, this can be done. The water supply is just an engineering problem. A few billion dollars, or euros, or Saudi Riyal, and it can be done.
Israel will give back the West Bank settlements, even if they don't want to. The US will eventually force them. Not the current president, but one of the next two. That is the easy part.
How to find a real government in Palestine is harder. How can they form a real government out of a crowd of resistance fighters, academics and such? They don't have a history of government of any kind, they have never ruled themselves. And there doesn't even seem to be a candidate for king, not even a despotic tyrant, no central figures. I don't think that is the fault of anyone in particular, especially not the Palestinians, but it is a big problem.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Yes indeed
Hmm, still having problems posting here...
Yes indeed
"I think Sharon was a military man who did not care much about casualties on the enemy side. That seems to be the norm in that business, with a few exceptions that came up in the last few decades."
I think that's kindest way to say it yes.
"Something that is not mentioned much in the media is water. The Palestinians need a better water supply, and a better distribution system. In principle, that is not hard, just expensive. And they don't have money. But they have rich friends, supposedly, in the Arab world. But with enough political pressure, this can be done. The water supply is just an engineering problem. A few billion dollars, or euros, or Saudi Riyal, and it can be done."
That's a very good point and something that is consistently ignored, as you say. it isn't just "an engineering problem" though that is certainly part of the equation. The primary obstacle before that is the control of the water which is overseen by Israel and thus it should come under international law. If it recognised West Bank and the Gaza Strip as occupied territories, then some progress could be made. Israel is violating the Hague Regulations (1907) and the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) by continuing to control water and other natural resources at great social cost to Palestinians. I think it was from the 1967 that Israel imposed a military order that ensured that water was to be seen as a strategic resource. Since then it has been down hill all the way and the blocking of a basic human right.
This will, in the future I think play a big part in the global picture as water becomes a very precious resource indeed. Certainly, Palestinians desperately need basic welfare and massive amounts of cash injection into an infrastructure that is non-existent. As always, it is children that are suffering the most.
As to the whether Palestinians have "rich friends" I think that depends. The Saudis have mega-bucks all right, but they generally only care for their fellow Arabs when it suits them. They have a rather incestuous relationship with the US which includes the Bush dynasty of course. Saudi Arabia has serious human rights issues too so I guess we can't expect much help from them any time soon.
As US interests are largely dominated by Israel I think we may be waiting a long time before anything is "easy". I hope you're right - I really do. But Zionists have a way of stepping in with all kinds of false-flag operations right at the time when progress is about to be made.
"How to find a real government in Palestine is harder. How can they form a real government out of a crowd of resistance fighters, academics and such? They don't have a history of government of any kind, they have never ruled themselves. And there doesn't even seem to be a candidate for king, not even a despotic tyrant, no central figures. I don't think that is the fault of anyone in particular, especially not the Palestinians, but it is a big problem."
I suppose one could say that when Palestine was incorporated into the Ottoman state there was certainly a form of governance. By the beginning of 1800s the Egyptian Moh'd Ali Pasha ruled Palestine and by the end of the 1800s there were Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem who were represented at the first Ottoman parliament. It seems like there's been sporadic governance from Turky and Egypt for God knows how long. It has certainly been a chequered history for sure.
However, dealing with the present must be the priority. When you are an oppressed people where the children know nothing but violence and bloodshed, of course there is going to be serious social knots to untangle. But this does not mean that we should somehow see them as less than capable. This is a seriously traumatized population that is still suffering real humiliation. Israelis with conscience now have an obligation and repsonsibility to demand that their government cease all acts of aggression against the Palestinian population starting with the conscious targeting of civilians. The refreshing thing is that even members of the Israeli military are now refusing to kill civilians which is a step in the right direction:
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp
http://www.couragetorefuse.org/English/n...
Stan
water, governance and friends
The water issue is certainly political. But it can be solved without Israel's help, if other countries help.
Israel's control over the water supply is mainly by taking water out of the Jordan river. But that is not enough, even now, for all the people living in the area. Desalination of sea water can overcome this problem. Of course for a landlocked place like the West Bank, that doesn't seem very helpful. But again, with help from Jordan and someone with money, it can be done.
Which brings us, again, to the Palestinian's so-called friends. You are correct, the Saudis don't want to help them. I think this has nothing to do with the US, just with Saudi selfishness, the royal family doesn't respect anyone except themselves. (Part of their polygamy system if you ask me, but that is beside the point.) Nobody else in the Arab world wants to help them either. Jordan has a historical case, from the 1970s, when Fatah tried to take over that country. The Arab community could help a lot, they should actually start to try.
As for governance, sure there has been government in that area before modern Israel was established. My point is that it was never independent government by the Palestinians. Always some colonial power or another. So the independent structures are not there, within that population. That makes it hard. There are similar cases, perhaps not as bad, in some of the former Soviet republics that are now independent states. Or in Africa, with independent states arbitrarily created by the colonial powers.
What the Palestinians do have, as a natural resource, is sunshine. This is not a joke, I am serious. You can make a lot of money growing crops if you have enough sun, and enough irrigation. Consider California.
I don't want to get back into the argument about the zionists controlling the western world, you know I don't believe that they do. I am just trying to point out some real problems on the ground, and some possible solutions, in the vain hope that somehow this will trickle down to someone who has influence.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Thanks Earthling
"I don't want to get back into the argument about the zionists controlling the western world, you know I don't believe that they do. I am just trying to point out some real problems on the ground, and some possible solutions, in the vain hope that somehow this will trickle down to someone who has influence."
And I enjoyed your informed replies. I agree very much with what you have to say on the subject. And I wouldn't dream of trying to force you to believe anything, though I will happily argue my case in the spirit of learning something new. And sure, it is not simply a question of Zionists controlling the world - that is quite true. Life is a lot more complex isn't it? I suppose, so far, in my own rsearch, Zionism is a very big part of not just the Palestinian crisis but how it operates in America and the global geo-political scene. There are of course, many other factors at play.
What I do think is true is that we will never find solutions "on the ground" if we are not able to truly look at ourselves dispassionately and objectively. We must be able to rigorously evaluate our beliefs and ideas to measure if they are still correct. This obviously relates to the external world. Solutions CAN appear but only if the reality before us is being viewed objectively. The problem is that it demands a considerable amount of effort to get to the truth - especially when it goes against our own beliefs. How many people want to do that?
As far as I see it, there is a very real truth regarding the mechanics of Zionism that is not widely known, just as it is true that the workings of psychopathology as it manifests in our world is also not widely known. These are just two examples of major deficits in our collective knowledge base that have important effects on the geo-political scene. If partially remedied, maybe the awareness of such features can help to provide some creative solutions instead of endless chaos and suffering. I'm really tired of it all, as I'm sure you are.
But as the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr said: "God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, Courage to change things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."
Stan
It Wasn't The Least Bit Offensive!
earthling
Isreal is on stolen Palistinian land. There is no God to give the land to them! I didn't respond to our other conversation. But, if I had, I would have pointed out that the main factor that brought Hitler to power was the power vaccuum that was created when the Kisar was forced to abdicate, not a lack of U.S. involvement. The Zionists, with U.S. backing, are taking unfair advantage of the Palestinian people. They have been cruelly persecuting the Palestinian people for decades! The Palestinian people have the right to fight back! Zionist deceit and manipulation must come to an end!
You should think a little more before you post such comments in my opinion! I know that we are opposites! But, in my opinion, you are too blind in you support for the U.S. and Zionist Israel! On the otherhand, I support Japan in much the same way!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
stolen land
The ancient Israelite, perhaps 4000 or 5000 years ago, stole the land from someone. This doesn't have anything to do with God, it was probably a military conquest like any other. On a small scale.
Later the area came under domination of various empires, at some point the Israelites regained control. Then the Romans stole it, and did their best to suppress the Israelites by supressing their religion.
Later still the Arabs stole if from the crumbling Roman empire. In fact the Arabs stole a whole lot of other areas as well, all the way into Europe, taking over Spain. They ran out of steam in southern France, and those areas were getting less interesting. Crummy weather, no interesting cities, not worth conquering. The Muslim conquest was a military success, it was not done by gentle persuasion. To be fair, oppression on religious was not all that pervasive, but if you wanted to do good business with the government, it was highly advantageous to be a Muslim. Nothing unusual for the times.
Later, the Europeans stole back Spain, and some small bits of North Africa. They stole back bits of Palestine too, which the Arabs eventually took back.
Later, the Turks stole the Eastern Roman (Greek) empire, including Greece. Perhaps out of boredom, they stole Palestine, areas now knows as Iraq, and a good part of southeastern Europe.
Then, early in the last century, the British stole parts of the Turkish (Ottoman) empire, for a short time. Oh yes, I forgot the Greeks stole Greece back from Turkey, and other Europeans stole their regions back from Turkish control, with some outside help.
Then in 1948, the current Israelis stole part of Palestine, essentially from the British who controlled it. Now the Palestinians want to keep those parts that the Israelis did not steal up to 1967. Quite a few Palestinians want to steal all of Israel.
In other places, the Japanese stole Japan from the Ainu, a long time ago.
The Han stole most of China.
The Mongols stole most of central Asia, including all of Russia. Then the Russians stole most of these areas, some from the Mongols, some from local independent tribes.
Japan stole Manchuria, and Korea, and many Pacific Islands including the Phillipines.
The Russians stole eastern parts of Germany (East Prussia and other reasons), and they stole all of eastern Europe from the locals. Around 1989 and 1990, these eastern European countries stole themselves back, mostly without mush violence. An exception is the former DDR, which they sold to West Germany.
Of course that is just a short list.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
seperate about europe
[Edit: this is a response for Kennc]
You point that Hitler's rise to power was because of the Kaiser's abdication is a little too simple. Maybe other factors were involved, not the least of which were the ridiculous reparation demands of the French. What triggered the chaos in Germany was the great depression. The Kaiser had little to do with those things. Perhaps your view comes from support for a royalist point of view, I don't know. About the propaganda of the day (WWI era), that the Kaiser's government was a terrible tyranny, that's of course nonsense.
Another very large problem was the Russian revolution, and the Leninist and Stalinist tyrannies which were viewed quite romantically by socialist circles in the West.
My point is that the Europeans, arrogantly dismissing the USA, made a complete mess of things, and are ultimately responsible for many millions of deaths in WWII. Not the USA. Japan's aggressive and violent conquests, and brutal suppression of their conquered peoples, may have been on a smaller scale. But Japan was not an innocent victim.
These are the sorts of reasons why I object to the view that the USA is the source of all evil. We have to look at all of history, not just the point of view of Japan or the Palestinians.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
You Forgot To Mention That...
earthling
The U.S.'s mismanagement of it's own economy caused the Great Depression! And that, both the U.S. and Canada sit on land that was stolen from Native North Americans! But, land stealing is still land stealing and thousands of wrongs don't make a right! Before I moved to Japan, I supported Native American Causes and Civil Rights in the U.S.! I know the dark bigoted side of this issue! Custer got what he had coming to him and you can ask any Native American or Civil Rights work about that!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
Indeed
I knew this thing about the theft of the US and Canada from the Native Americans was coming.
My point it that the Palestinians are not being singled out here, and that their plight, bad as it is, is by no means particularly bad. Of course that doesn't make it any easier for them.
I am just saying that almost everyone is guilty. Including the Arabs, the Japanese, the Chinese. The Israelis are no more guilty than the Han, or the non-native Australians, or the Japanese. And many others.
So the only real solution is to come to terms with each other, and settle on a compromise that everyone can live with. The line of argument you have presented in this thread does not do that, it again finds a "guilty" party, that seems to be responsible for all the problems. Or so it sounds, in these short messages we write here.
The Palestinians could have been helped a lot by their so-called friends in the surrounding Arab countries. They were not, instead they are still being used as pawns.
I am getting tired and frustrated saying this so many times, but it is still true: there are reasonable solutions for these problems, only too many unreasonable people on all sides.
Thank is what I think. It makes me sad.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Reasonable Solutions!
earthling
I'm not debating that there aren't reasonable solutions or that there aren't unreasonable people on both sides! I'm arguing that the Zionists are being the most unreasonable by far! The Zionist act like they are God's chosen people and that the world should let them have anything that they want! Who do they think that they are?
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
There's more
And kennc, I am not arguing that there are no extremists in Israel. There are. They want all of Israel, plus the West Bank, plus Gaza. They won't get it, and they are not even in control of Israeli policies now.
Equally problematic are some Palestinians who want the exact same thing, they want the West Bank, Gaza and Israel.
The current Iranian president is perhaps the most dangerous extremist in the area. He appears extreme enough to use nuclear weapons once he gets them. And he wants to get them. That is a problem, for the Palestinians as well as the Israelis. You can't hit Israel without also badly damaging Palestine.
I am saying that to single out what you call the Zionists as the biggest problem is too simple. It makes it look as if removing the influence of the Zionists is a solution. We would still have the same problems.
We have to remove the influence of all these idiot extremists. And it is sad that "we" have to even worry about this, because "they", to regional countries, appear to have little interest in solving any of their problems.
Look at Lebanon this past week. Syria wants to take over Lebanon again, so their send their minions (Hesbollah) to try to stage a takeover of the elected government. Syria sees Lebanon as a potentially rich country, which it is when there is no war there. And Syria wants the money. The Zionists have little to do with that.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Open your eyes and see
Hello,
One week later and Earthling is still at it, excusing the zionist cabal, now the hezbollah are syria's minions again oh boy...i think the hezbollah have found out recently that they can stand their own ground. Syria' wants the money duh, what money after the Zionists laid half of Lebanon to waste.
Your parade of ancient and old occupators' wrongs doesnt excuse whats going on now in this day and age or are you trying to tell us here that we goyim are still the ignorants of days gone by- i think not.
Alas certain groups, zionists being one of them, still hold on to millenia old beliefs from societies completely different then todays. However one element, by enlarge has remained, war, destruction and suppression, without it those old ways beliefs loose the last relevance they hold for people.
Because the zionists claim they are part of the 'west' the west has to take action against these evilminders and do ers, not only in name of the palistinians, but in our name, to uphold our ideas about human dignity and rights, which are getting smeared by association with zionistrael. And yes also in the name of many jews who get sick of whats going on there.
Here's the first line of an extensive article by one of them, Jeff Harper,detailing what really has been going on since 1948.
"The problem in the Middle East is not the Palestinian people, not Hamas, not the Arabs, not Hezbollah or the Iranians or the entire Muslim world. It’s us, the Israelis. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the single greatest cause of instability, extremism and violence in our region, is perhaps the simplest conflict in the world to resolve"
Read the rest of The problem with Israel here
I mentioned the talmud being the main absolving element in zionism, many of you have no idea how shocking the ideas upheld and revered from it are. This article goes into one aspect of the whole demonesk mindset displayed in the talmud. A warning upfront , its not for the fainthearted.
dirty secret
A matter of choice;
Intimidation, corruption and lies, or serenity, sharing and sincerity.
Look Rho
After what you wrote about me, personally, discounting my humanity, I will not talk to you any more.
That is all.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
We Disagree!
earthling
Stop trying to side step this issue! The Zionists have proven that they think that they should be allowed to have anything that they want and to h&ll with the rightful owners!
To h&ll with anyone that isn't a Zionists! They want to run things and rule the world and they've told me so when I've disagreed with them! Because I don't bow down to them and call them master, they have stolen from me, lied about me, and cheated me in many ways! Believe me, I know the Zionists! I know them well!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}
bowing down
Kennc, of course you shoult now bow down to anyone.
This does not mean that those people who threatened you, cheated you, lied about you, are the only danger in the world.
Socialists and communists have hurt me in ways similar to what you say. We don't have to go into details.
Some Muslims have hurt me, other Muslims have been friends.
I have Bhuddist friends (Inians mostly), and boy do some Muslims want to hurt them.
Yes there are Zionists (as you describe them) who want to run the world, and the reast of the world cannot let them do that. But they are not running the world. There are other people who want to run the world, we should not let them do it either.
My point is that there is not one single group of bad guys. There are many. Your personal experience may look different. But there are many victims, not just you. And there are many "unreasonable people", not just the ones who treat you, or me, badly.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance
Note for Kennc
I have to say, aside from this thread, and in context with past conversations:
We do disagree on some important topics, it is true. But rest assured, I don't feel you are threatening me. Or bullying me. You mention those things occasionally.
Neither do I threaten you, I am just trying to present a view. I could not threaten you if I wanted to, and I don't want to.
----
don't let people drive you crazy, when it is within walking distance