Dr. Dowell and Dr. Schoch will be visiting the “Bosnian Pyramids”
Hello Everyone,
This is Robert Schoch writing. I have been following the controversy over the “Bosnian Pyramids.” So far, all I have seen are miscellaneous articles in the popular media and various analyses that have been released thus far. In my opinion, the controversy that the alleged pyramids have engendered is fascinating unto itself in terms of the sociology of science and popular culture, how arguments between “experts” and “amateurs” are framed, and the tactics both sides utilize (especially certain “experts” as they attempt to outright dismiss the work of people who do not belong to their “club”). But, beyond that, I would like to know what exactly is going on with the Bosnian Pyramids in terms of potential ancient occupation and usage of the site.
The dominant question for many people currently is: Are the Bosnian Pyramids natural, artificial, or somewhere in between? At this point it is premature for me to attempt an answer to this question, but I certainly have a preliminary working hypothesis. My impression, based on the limited data I have seen, is that the Bosnian Pyramids may have started out as natural hills that were subsequently used and modified. If this is the case, there are certainly similar examples elsewhere in the world. The Great Pyramid of Egypt, the exemplar of all pyramids, is built over an original natural mound structure. But, I must stress that this is simply a working hypothesis concerning the alleged Bosnian Pyramids. One has to be very careful when trying to figure out if a large pyramid-like structure is natural, artificial (man-made), or somewhere in between (for instance a natural feature that was purposefully used and/or modified by humans, a concept sometimes referred to as terraforming [Earth-shaping], although this term originally referred to hypothetically modifying another planet, such as Mars, to become Earth-like and potentially inhabitable by Earthlings).
I cannot judge the Bosnian Pyramids without adequate data. I really need to be able to gather data in such areas as the following: The local stratigraphy (here I am speaking both geologically and archaeologically), the larger cultural and geologic/geomorphologic context of the supposed pyramids, associated ancient occupation sites and possible artifacts, the much heralded tunnels, mining and quarrying activities, tool marks, and so on and so forth. To try to judge based on a few photographs, a handful of satellite images, and miscellaneous statements that are often contradictory (and which have in some cases been subject to mistranslation and misunderstanding), is not my approach. I learned long ago that photographs can be misleading (photographs of features that “clearly look artificial” can be of natural features, and vice versa), and few “authorities” are unbiased.
The only way that I hope to get a valid sense of the Bosnian Pyramids is to see all of the important, and controversial, features firsthand with adequate time to really analyze what is going on. I am pleased to be able to say that such an opportunity has presented itself. As readers of The Daily Grail already know, my colleague and friend Dr. Colette Dowell has been in direct contact with Sam Semir Osmanagich and Mario Gerussi of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation. They have generously invited Colette and me to visit the site and study the pyramid structures and associated features. We will be there in late July and early August. I am looking forward to the trip, and I plan to apply my geological expertise to the problem of the Bosnian Pyramids. As we prepare for the trip, we invite readers to share with us specific ideas and suggestions as to things you would like us to look at in particular when we are there.
Also, as I write this, I am visiting with Colette for a few days (through Thursday the 22nd June 2006), so if you would like for me to address any questions at the moment, I will do my best to.
Warm regards to all,
Robert Schoch
my sentiments also
Dear Dr. Schoch, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment on this find. I know I will be looking forward to your and Dr. Dowell's observations as you will have first hand knowledge and being there "on the scene" and gratefully, FACTUAL reporting. Devoid of the egotistical infighting and "me first" attitude so prevalent in the academic community. It's wearying to confront this paradigm, to me it's more difficult than the actual digging and procurement of samples for testing and waiting for the eventual results. Sincerely, Pam
P.S. I have tried to give a brief report on the origin of the Illyrians on a previous blog to acquaint the readers of TDG on the early history of this region. -----------------------------Truth is stranger than fiction.
Dating the Structures.
I would like to know if any dating has been done on the dig site. I have not seen anything but wild guesses on when the structures where built. Also if people built these pyramids. Then they had to live somewhere and it was probably close by. There must be a city.
Terrific news!
All of us here at TDG will be waiting with baited breath to hear what you have to say.
There seems to be so much conflicting stuff out there about the Bosnian pyramid that it will be good to get a first-hand expert view on it.
shadows
Dr. Dowell and Dr. Schoch
Dr. Dowell and Dr. Schoch, first of all, I'm looking forward to your visit to Bosnia.
As you invited us in your letter, to give some possible options, I was free to give few backgroung details.
Bosnia, but also whole region is rich in prehistory sites. Visochica Hill (alleged pyramid) is in near vicinity of well known Butmir Culture sites (3.500 - 2.500 BC), which was one of the biggest and most developed cultures in Europe at that time. Also if you going to the east, in Serbia you'll find also remarkable Lepenski Vir Culture (6500 - 5000 BC) and Vinca Culture (5000 - 3500 BC). (Vinca Culture strata is 10,5 m thick, and still not excavated entirely).
Archeologists who excavated those sites claimed that both of these cultures had letter. Inscriptions have been found, very simmilar to today's cyrillic letters and Greek alphabet. Ortodox science denied that those inscriptions are letters, keeping themselves at the position that first letter appeared in Mesopotamia, in Sumer. There are also some views that bosnian Butmir Culture was only younger phase of Vinca Culture in Serbia.
Furthermore, it also have to be said that the region of the adriatic coast in Croatia and Bosnia, also not far away from Visochica Hill, is rich with prehistory fortresses, built with megaliths. Scientists are saying that those fortresses belong to Illyrians, but not much research has been done in this matter, so we basically don't know much about the origin of these archeological sites.
Also, there are views that some areas of Bosnia, now between adriatic coast and inner parts in ancient times were under water. In other words, in last few thousend years, maybe less, water withdrown to form today's coast line.
And finnaly, there also could be said that Bosnia, being mountain country, could possibly be excellent refuge place for humans during and after Ice age. They could have possibly find refuge on the top of the mountains, while lower parts of the land was under water or ice. That especially, having in mind that surrounding regions (Croatia and Hungary on the north and and Serbia on the east) consists of low, flat land.
research of letter from above mentioned prehistoric cultures could be interesting thing, having in mind new greek archeology thoughts that greek culture originated on the balkan peninsula from 3500 BC.
Greek archeologists dated their pyramids (although they are much smaller than egyptian ones) to be few hundred years older than pyramids in Egypt. Although dating of greek pyramids was done by University of Edinbourgh, ordox archeologists also denied its acuracy.
And finnaly, it must be said that due to historical reasons, Bosnia is still unresearched country. Not much has been done in archeology, due to the fact that Bosnia was often under foreign rule and that lack of finances also contributed to this fact.
I hope you'll find these data useful during your trip to Bosnia.
pyramids
Interesting bit of synchronicity.Just thought I would share it.
I saw the article on the Bosnian Pyramids while I was in San Michel en Greve in France.
That very day I had just walked out on the beach at low tide. One can walk almost a mile out when the tide is low. And looked back at the Grande Roche( A large mound that extends out into the ocean. I took a pic and posted it for friends and asked them what they saw from that point.
www.prochemer.blogspot.com
You will have to scroll down to see the picture/blog of the mound(Grande Roche) I took from far out on the low tide.
And the top blog is about climbing the mound.
....actually here is an address that will take you to the pic I am talking about
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/763/1...
enjoy
t
Legend of a lost city
According to this site, there is a local legend to the effect that a city lies beneath this rock. It goes on saying that the city can be seen at midnight on Pentecost night.
good news
This is good news. I trust you will find out much more than we can from the news sources, which are mostly sensationalist. Even the supposedly serious newspapers just give the "interesting" and new headlines about these sort of things.
I looked at the Google Earth part of the area. Unfortunately, there is nothing of interesting resolution in the exact spot. But one thing I did notice: there are a lot of linear ridges, and other ridges perpendicular to those, in the neighborhood.
After you visit the locale, can you publish GPS coordinates for the curious amateurs ?
This is really interesting.
Thank you from Robert Schoch and Colette Dowell
Thank you from Robert Schoch and Colette Dowell, and keep the thoughts concerning the “Bosnian Pyramids” coming
Hello Everyone,
Thank you for the comments thus far. Dr. Dowell and I will try to gather as much information as possible when we are in Bosnia, both about the alleged pyramids directly, and also concerning the possible ancient cultural context. Stellarchaser and plw12752anderson in particular make some very good points concerning the rich, and quite ancient, history of the Bosnian area. This is certainly pertinent to the potential context of the alleged pyramids, and we will definitely try to follow these leads. Also, thank you for all of the other comments. We are making a list of points to cover, as best we can, while we are there - - so keep the comments coming as you think of things.
Best wishes,
Robert Schoch
Hello, I am keeping track and saving all of the comments and such.
Thank you, this is fun!
Colette Dowell
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Bosnian Pyramid
Im probably being overly simple here so please excuse me if i am. Why doesn't someone just dig the damn thing up and find out for sure? I truly hope it is a pyramid because it would be incredible to see the faces of the "Good ole boys science club" when it turns out that the accepted history of that part of the world is all ass backwards. lol Best of luck and a safe trip. take lots of pics.
Time and X-Ray Vision, your statement was cute marsbars....
Hello this is Colette,
Robert and I just read your remark," Why doesn't someone just dig the damn thing up and find out for sure? " We laughed. You know it takes more time then that --ha!
It would be best if we had X-ray vision like Superman....then we could write, and take our time to excavate and not damage and save any artifacts or what ever.
Also I want to thank everyone. I have been saving all of the notes and threads that have been on this topic since we first began it and Greg posted the question and poll about it.
I am reading all I can, Robert has all of the files I have saved and we will do our home work before we go and be prepared. We will learn about the surrounding terrain and other civilizations, we appreciate the extra time and info that people have sent on this thread as well as the other info on the poll post.
I would like it to be known that we will be very honest and not embellish or distort --write false information just to please people or what ever.
Yes, I plan on taking many photos, also bringing my hi tech video. I have already asked if there will be sufficient lighting to film the tunnels...I plan on documenting as much as possible as time will allow. We a to arrive the 27th of July and return on the 9th of August.
I do hope there is something there besides just ruins form old hill forts and the likes. I will research as much as I can and learn the difference between the ages and such. Robert is doing the same, we have outlined many things already, we are going about this very methodically and scientifically. It will not be " Hey we found Atlantis " when there may be no such thing. It will not be hyped journalism. I will be fair in my assessments and Robert is a scientist and professional writer as well , so I see no problem in being able to learn and cover the story with out many problems. Just please be patient as there will be much info to process and then to write up and place in order.
This is a very exciting thing to be doing, and it was just a wild idea I got, but when reading the various articles that read differently and there was so much confusion, that is when I called them and offered to help as Robert has the required degrees to deal with the geological, plus he overlaps in other fields, as well as I do.
I hope for out trip to resolve some issues and to be of service, and get some straight reporting. Robert and I will do our best. We are thankful for the support and grateful to have such a large base of friends at the Gail who believe in our work and think of us as honest and ethical researchers.
Thank you, it means a lot to us. It really in a way makes us feel more responsible to get things correct, as we have people depending on us for straight info with out the jive and hype and misinformation. We are not there to insult or otherwise anything negative. We are there to help and discover.
I am looking forward to it, and I am kind of in shock that it is all happening just because I got curious and went to the source. So, hey, weirder things have happened, but this is a wonderful weird thing...I feel very fortunate, so does Robert.
Greg and everyone who runs the Grail are a great team. The Grail is a great source of news and will be receiving exclusive info as it is written up. I guess I will have to post pics on our site and then we link like usual for the Grail.
The members in the forum are exceptional and we are proud to be sister sites with the Grail and its members.
I know I am behind on the Peru material, but there has been many things that have come up to have to tend to. Actually the missing headdress has taken us on to a new realization, that was obscure to have found that a few weeks ago, so I have been studying and Robert has, we are working on that as well. Multi tasking I suppose. WE are finding out very much new information and coming to some clever theories and suspects...This will have to be written up in time as well too as there is only me and Robert.....I wish we had more help. But when you folks send us links and comments, you are contributing to the data base and research, this is just not me and Robert, this has been a combined effort and I want you folks to realize that and understand that, you are part of these happenings and new discoveries and thoughts.....
We sincerely thank every one, and especailly the staff of the Grail that supports us and allows us to contibute with information on the Grail as news sources and articles.
Everyone has been great.
Love, Colette and Robert
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
some news from Bosnia
Today was last working day of two Egyptian scientist at Bosnian pyramids (geologist Barakat and archeologist El Hadidi).
As they leaving, they gave some public statesments regarding Visochica Hill region. I think it would be interesting for you to read it.
After his arrival in Bosnia, geologist Barakat said that Visochica Hill " most probably is some kind of primitive pyramid." Today, after more than a month he spent working there, he didn't change much his opinion:
"For me, as a scientist and geologist, there's still no doubt that this is man-made. I think that humans were cut, pollished, reshaped and formed stone blocks, bringing them here and adding them to the allready existing hill, in order to give shape of the pyramid to the hill."
So basically, geologist Barakat thinks that Visochica Hill is reshaped by humans into pyramidal shape.
Archeologist El Hadidi also said that large archeological site has been found on pyramyd of the moon (the hill that is just accross Visochica Hill). She also said that " it is really impossible that nature creates shapes like this. Maybe one, but not three or four sides of the hill as we have here. There is still lot of work to be done here, if we want to unveil all secrets of this valley."
She also mentioned that large archeological site was discovered at the pyramid of the moon, but she couldn't give possible date of that site, saying that further research is needed.
And I would like to add that complex of man made tunnels has been found there. Miners who examined those tunnels said that those tunnels definitelly are not mines. Scientists there think that those tunnels perhaps are connecting three pyramids. In one of the tunnels large polished monolith has been found with carved unknown inscriptions, consisting of arrows and letter "E".
From Robert
From Robert Schoch
Hello,
Sorry to have not replied sooner, due to thunderstorms we were not able to access online (dsl). I am on my way back to Boston after a week’s worth of work with Colette. The next few weeks we will prepare for our journey to Bosnia. Colette is gathering information and I am absorbing the contradictions both Colette and I are finding.
This is Colette now……
While Robert was writing that letter to post, the electricity blew and all electricity was off for nearly 24 hours. Robert is gone now and I will finish up here. There has been much rain and very much lightning and my computer stopped functioning. I have not been able to open it. I am sorry if it seems we have not written, when actually we have been trying to write since Saturday. It is Monday here now.
I took a look at the site called Bosnian Pyramid .com which is different then the one that Mario and Sammie runs. This is the news letter that was posted. It is like what ‘stellachaser’ posted. I had done this yesterday before the lightning, but checked again and there are no new updates yet on that site. I will be waiting to hear about what is going on. I just heard back from Robert and he arrived safely back to Boston, he had to drive over 17 hours with equipment and with the outages and storms I did not know what was going on. So, he is OK now. This letter I am writing is just a continuation from the last couple of days form computer hassles and no power. We wanted to communicate with you.
I noticed they posted Robert was coming, that is good. I should be in contact with those fellows over there sometime this week. I need to go to their site and see what is up. But this is the link to the other one. It has this article and other news and pictures and things.
I will place the link here.
24 June 2006
BosniaPyramid.com
I am collecting all I can and doing searches and keeping in touch. There are many people at forums that call themselves “Archaeological Buffs,” that seem to pride their armchair reading over site/field investigations and education for actually acquiring a degree or being in the field of research for many decades. They have said some pretty negative things. I hope every one can just keep an open mind and realize these things take time. What ever the outcome, it is a really neat thing and fun to think of that maybe there might be another lost colony or something somewhere – if not, then it should be fun during the process, not a negative episode. It is better to focus on that then the other negative news about the world these days. But, I hate to read it when people mouth off, or news agencies or sites quote from a student on a mathematical formula of the supposed pyramid and the student has his math and geometry wrong; unless he is going to apply the same ration to every pyramid in the world, which is incorrect, because they are all different heights with different slope angles. So how can a student who remarks that there is no monument or structure because of his mathematical analysis make forefront news when his mathematics are wrong???? Then the news agencies and sites take his comments and post them, then the post from the news agencies and sites are posted on forums that are “buffs” who just like to argue and insult and have never in most cases left their own neighborhood. So what is that all about? It is a lot of bad reporting and bad foul mouth close minded people making unintelligent comments and then taking pride in themselves for doing so. What Robert and I are going to do is just focus on the findings and research it and do what our job is --and that is all….
If anyone else has some place they can direct me to for more info on various studies that would be great, I will go there and collect all knowledge, I will continue my search for ancient colonies in that region and the different eras…I will forward it to Robert, we will do as much as we can before we have to go. We appreciate the combined efforts very much, this is not just a few people who are working on this, it is the entirety of the people who are curious and want to help – that is good.
I do know there are other structures there and forts and different eras of civilizations. That is what gets me – when an Archaeological internet magazine ( or so called experts and officials of geology and archaeology) writes there is no excavation zone there, when there are many on top of each other due to the different eras…..How can you reach for it until you remove the layers? Dumb, dumb, dumb…..and there is official “Go Ahead” from the Country of Bosnia’s Government. The analogy of these people who are writing the negative is like they do not want anything to be there --like their mindset is this….”Well, if anything was there, I think we would have found it by now, after all, we are the experts, not an amateur archaeologist.” Weird crap…that is all it is…egos…competition and a strange form of, “I do not want you to have it if I can not.”
Ok, thank you very much.
Sorry for the late reply, but as I said, no power, thunder and storms. Robert sends his greetings and thank yous, and will keep in touch.
Robert and Colette
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Videos on Bosnia site to watch and listen
I can log in now I think….
I edited the last note. Thanks to Kat, she got it up for me. (Oh thank you Kat-thank you.)
Here is a neat link. It is radio and has video and audio to it. There are different dates of Sammie and others speaking. There are various formats to choose from as well depending on your PC or Mac or what ever you have to watch and listen --so, it is pretty neat. Astraea uploaded another video the other day from a very recent interview with Sammie on June 6th. It takes time to process the footage and upload so they are not posted the same day or even within the same week they are recorded. I think you will find the little videos of interest though.
Please click here
and you will see where to go and what you can choose from to listen to and see. Sammie has a soft and gentle voice, you must listen carefully and then there is some other guy on anther video with a little back ground noise, but all and all you can understand what is being said. There are various ones to choose from on different dates with a variety of people.
I hope you enjoy them!
C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
bosnian pyramids
hello again,
I would just to reffer latest Colette's letter. She's quite rightly saying that many of "real archeologists" would like to stop the excavations. They know their reasons for that.
I also would like to say something about visit of Mr.Anthony Harding, who is president of European Archeologist Association.
http://www.boston.com/news/science/artic...
He visited the site of Visochica Hill incognito, "briefly" and partially, according to his own words. He didn't speak with anybody: archeologists, geologists of people from Visoko Museum. He didn't see any of artefacts that have been found. He didn't see any of the paperwork from the site. He actually didn't see even man-made pavement found on alleged pyramid of the moon, but he said that "according to photographs" it is natural too.
And then he went to a press conference, saying "it is everything natural there".
So much about proffessional assessment of archeological site.
If he represents today's archeological "cream", than they shouldn't exist at all. I'm affraid that they are there only to preserve their dogmatic "Truths".
June 30th - New 16 min Video of Tunnel and weird links –Zahi too
Hello,
Have a letter to post then thought I would post these links of interest instead.
The first ones are very nice, the last ones are news, and two of them, well, one is the letter from the Embassy of the Arabian Republic stating that they were sending some people over to check out the hill and then the PDF file of Zahi stating the other day….”Oh no…the guy is into Aliens….I did not send anyone…” --interesting how he switches gears, as Zahi does not allow anyone to send anyone else anywhere with out his knowledge…The letter does not even read like Zahi, and what is interesting , English is not his first language, he does not write English well. Could that explain the bleak grammar? So, what is going on here? Did Zahi write something and have some one translate it, or did he tell some one to write it and place his name on it to get it over with, or what? Some where and somehow things are a bit screwed up there with that letter from Zahi -- as a Dignitary should have a bit more professional writing standards then how that letter is written. I feel a little shocked by his letter that is so bluntly crude in expression and denial. It is not in Zahi’s style of writing.
So you can go though the links here and then there is a letter that has been composed to post, I am still debating on posting it, but thought I might as well post these links. The 16 minute video was just posted today on the site of the Bosnian Pyramid .com site, not the other one pyramidasunca.ba or what ever…I can’t write it unless I am directly looking at it….sorry…
I hope you enjoy looking at the alphabet, and the video, the rest is a little hairy, but will keep you informed. Maybe I will post that letter that was written earlier….I have to think about it…
Colette
A video that loads and buffers quickly, mostly in Bosnian language, very keen to see though….
16 Minute Video Pyramid of the Sun Inside Tunnel
Some nice letters and a great graphic with details of ancient ruinic type writing alphabet like the monolithic stone.
Letter to Editor with Graphic of Ancient Alphabet
Another pic a little different graph of ancient writing like that on the monolithic stone.
Forum with Ancient Alphabet Graphic (scroll down )
NOTE: These links are actually in the news section some what, but you must click on the links that say letters and what not because they are PDF files to read and they just show up in the window of the URL page.
A letter stating intentions of Egyptian Embassy.
The Embassy of the Arabian Republic of Egypt Letter March 8th, 2006
A controversial Zahi making comments which are a little??????
ZAhi’s letter June 27th, 2006
And then there is this with the latest news as of June 30th......
News Page With Latest Updates as of June 30th, 06
Bye,C
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
GPS?
Collette, do you have GPS coordinates of the actual pyramid (or hill) ?
Google Earth recently updated some maps, maybe now there is something to see.
Zahi's letter
This is what Zahi Hawass aleggedly wrote:
"Tuesday, June 27, 2006
Mr. Mark Rose
Archaeology Magazine
Dear Mr. Rose,
In response to your question regarding the “pyramid” in Bosnia, here is my answer: The discoverer of the “pyramid” in Bosnia, Semir Osmanagic, who claims that a hill near the Bosnia River is a man-made structure built before the end of the last Ice Age, is not a specialist on pyramids. His previous claim that the Maya are from the Pleiades and Atlantis should be enough for any educated reader.
This “pyramid” is actually a sloping hill near a village. This was famous in the Middle Ages as a meeting place for merchants. What was found there is really just a mass of huge stones, evidently a natural geologic formation. The stones do not match, and there is no evidence that they were put together to form a solid structure. No one can say that these stones were transported by human beings since each weighs approximately 40 tons. Apart from its general outline, this hill bears absolutely no resemblance to the Egyptian pyramids. Mr. Barakat, the Egyptian geologist working with Mr. Osmanagic, knows nothing about
Egyptian pyramids. He was not sent by the SCA, and we do not support or concur with his statements.
Other archaeologists, such as a specialist in Prehistory at the National Museum in Sarajevo named Zellika, have stated that Mr. Osmanagic is giving out false information. What can Mr. Osmanagic use to show the age of the “pyramid?” No archaeological materials have been found near the pyramid. Mr. Osmanic’s theories are purely hallucinations on his part, with no scientific backing.
Sincerely yours,
Dr. Zahi Hawass
Secretary General, SCA"
If this letter is genuine, I must say that Hawass is pretty confused person.
ZAHI HAWASS: "This was famous in the Middle Ages as a meeting place for merchants."
This is ridiculous statement. Hawass portrays Old Town Visoko as mediaeval marketplace. Truth is that Visoko was mediaeval political, religious and economical center.
ZAHI HAWASS: " What was found there is really just a mass of huge stones, evidently a natural geologic formation."
I didn't know that Hawass is geologist? If he's not geologist, this statement is without any value.
ZAHI HAWASS: "Apart from its general outline, this hill bears absolutely no resemblance to the Egyptian pyramids."
And why should they? It seems to me that Mr. Hawass is so opsessed with egyptian pyramids, that he's saying something what is so obvious. Why any pyramidal structure outside Egypt should bear any resemblence to egyptian pyramids?
ZAHI HAWASS: "No one can say that these stones were transported by human beings since each weighs approximately 40 tons."
Another amateur statement. Humans can transport 40 tons stone blocks. Mr. Hawass should visit Balbec, or take a look on king's chamber's roof in Cheops pyramid. So obviously humans can deal with 40 tons stone blocks. But we would like to hear how. From expert like Mr.Hawass for example.
ZAHI HAWASS: "No archaeological materials have been found near the pyramid."
Mr Hawass obviously knows very little about "the meeting place for merchants". Nor he is watching the news. Archeological materials have been found on Visochica, before and after recent excavations begun.
ZAHI HAWASS: "Mr. Barakat, the Egyptian geologist working with Mr. Osmanagic, knows nothing about Egyptian pyramids."
Mr.Barakat said that he was working on egyptian pyramids, AS GEOLOGIST, for twenty years. Even if he had lied about it, he musn't know anything about egyptian pyramids. He's geologist.
So we see Mr.Hawas flying his statesments around without any logic. If it's genuine, this letter is just a "I wash my hands" within dogmatic archeological club. Unfortunatelly, full of lies too.
i agree totally Stellar
If Hawass actually wrote this letter then he should be ashamed of himself.
He plays the little tin god in Egypt and is trying to reach out and play a little tin god in the rest of the world.
But I don't imagine the rest of the world will let him do it.
I am waiting for a comment by Dr Robert Schoch who IS a geologist, and then we will know for sure.
shadows
Sat Coordinates - Schoch and Yapping --Oh yeah, and Zahi
Hello,
I will check to see if I have the exact sat coordinates, if I do not, I can get them, just please be patient. I do have some scientific papers that were sent to me, I could look through them, I do not think of things like that, I look at images, colors, graphs and read. I do not do sat imaging, but I learn by looking at the different colors and reading what they mean. Please give me time to see if I do and if I don't I can ask for them.Have you checked all of the sites I posted and gone through them? Once we are there we will be getting alot of info in hardcopy and meeting up with many scientists, I will learn alot. I am also bringing my dictator and will be interviewing so I have all of the words proper and can listen back so I can write up properly what was said and not make any mistakes.
Yes, Robert will do the geology I am his assistant Gopher Girl and writing and doing all of that, photography, video, you name it, I do it, but he will write the scientific reports and I edit and we rewrite and bla-bla-bla......I will also be working with others and viewing things from my perspective and my back ground. It is a combined effort between colleagues of different disciplines. I look forward to the new things I will be learning and will be exposed to. Robert will be honest and we will make sure everything is correct before we let any info out. Also, I will have the shots to go with any statements and interpretations. I will lay out the reports like I did the articles on the Sphinx and show what is what so people can read and then look at a picture to see what it is that is being describe, any diagrams I will design as well, just remember it will take time and we are in the process of me moving and then school is starting and bla-bla-bla- on that as well.
Everyone that I have worked with so far have been excellent, and their voices are very soft and gentle, you can hear in their voices a truly wonderful joy . The outlook is positive and they all have a positive way of dealing with the negative people who are insulting them. They continue forward and do not waste time weeping because certain forums with their "Buff Mentalities" and some sites who think they are the "Know It Alls" (with out being educated) --making assumptions with out even seeing in physical what is going on --publishing incorrect data and misleading info. Whatever the outcome of these excavations, I feel it will be positive, something is there, it is too soon to know what, and if there are no pyramids that will not bother me either because whatever it is we will find out and it will be uncovered and all of that is very good. I do not think in a negative way, neither does Robert.
I took classes in geology, astronomy, chemistry and the likes before I went into alternative medicine for my doctorate. I also have a General Contractor's license and understand architecture and construction methods, modern and ancient. I was also privately tutored by many scientists and had great mentors who are now passed but had challenged the orthodox in the early years and changed history. Now, they are passing and most people do not even know their names and take it for granted what is now published for all of these years as fact was always so ( no- not true) when there was much hell for these pioneer scientists to go through. Please read the excellent interview Greg posted on the front page, I will copy this in and hope the link will wok as a copy.... But if it does not, look back on the Grail's homepage for Greg's post with this title -- "Andy Gough interviews Filip Coppens over at his excellent Arcadia website." He was very truthful and to me it is obvious he is a seasoned researcher as well and does not take much to the "new age" authors who do not do their home work, or plagiarize the works of earlier authors of many of the alternative theories that have proven to be correct after all of these years. I liked that interview very much, I recommend reading it so a person can gain a balance and sense of what it is like to be on the front line with your alternative and new thoughts and concepts; it is very difficult at times. In some ways it seems you are constantly fighting a nagging battle against the "Ignorants and Arrogants," that persist like fleas and mosquitoes sucking your blood for their own survival -- for with out you and your position they would have nothing in their life to yap about and to live for. Then there are the other groups like the very anal retentive and closed minded as in ,"It must be Clorox or it is not bleach and will not work." mindset.
Yes, it is all pretty wild what I have read and the embellishments and how people feel the need to get involved with it but do not know what they are speaking about. Greg, the staff of the Grail and the Grail members are contributing much to expose the good news on it through our chats. The Grail and a few other forums that are positive and open-minded are actually aiding in the research and contributing to educating the masses in a mature, well balanced way, not rude, and have good posters that are intelligent and write from the heart or ask questions and even offer info. I had a conversation today with an individual who is in a position of stature concerning the Bosnian excavations about how the Grail and its members are contributing and being very supportive. He thanks you very much and was actually aware of the Grail, so that made me very happy to hear that.
I have worked very hard on all of this, just because I am curious as you folks are, now I am in a position where I must be very responsible and not blow it for anyone and add to the confusion and make incorrect statements. I do not mean to be so silent if it seem like I am as in with holding info at times, I just need to be cautious. I have others who are watching out for Robert and me with the legal situations in this due to other forums making crude, foul, misleading, false statements and infringing on copyrighted material ( not just ours, but others as well). Oh, I wish people would grow up............
OK, so , I will look for what you are asking for, if I can not find it or it isn't the "exact," as in what you are asking, I will try to obtain it.for you. Robert is doing his home work too, we will always keep you informed when we are able to speak about some things. You will read it on the Grail before you will read it on our sites or others --probably right when it comes out from Robert and me. Just remember this is a very long process.We will post links to the pictures and all too when we have them available, or send them to Greg and maybe he can set something up here for the Grail, I don't know how we will do this yet. Greg when it comes time, will have to think about what he would like to do as well.There is more on the Grail then just the Bosnian Pyramids.
I was in communication to day with Robert and he sends his greetings, he is very busy too right now and we are both boning up, we have the copies of the info that was placed for us on the various postings, I went to print and have it next to me to do searches on ....he has his home work outlined too. Robert likes the Grail very much and its members. He appreciates Greg and the Staff of the Grail for allowing us to post here as we do not post anywhere else; this is our home base kind of. Greg and the Staff -- Robert thanks you very much and is most appreciative. I really want you to know that, and you folks, I wish you could see the little smile on his face when he reads your questions. He really feels good when he can just write and it does not have to be so formal.
Ok, I yapped long enough. I will post when I have more to say and when I have that info availble at hand.
Thank you,
C
Well, I just checked to see if that link will work, no it does not by copying it over, so please go to the front page and scroll down a bit, you will see where Greg posted it. It is a very good interview.
Oh, I don't know how I could have forgotten this, ( maybe because it is so lacking in spirit) but yeah, Zahi? Well, that was a most remarkable letter for him to write and everyone who has any consciousness about the matter totally agrees it is very degrading , but degrading to Zahi, not the Institute or Sammie and Mario. I have received many emails concerning his letter. All are in agreement ( even in writing almost the very same feelings and words) with what was posted above from stellachaser and Shadows.
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
GPS
Of course, there is no hurry for the likes of me for the coordinates.
I would like to suggest however that whatever investigation you do there can be helped if you take a GPS unit with you. These things are not expensive, and not hard to use. If you use them appropriately, you will have a good record of where you found things. Or perhaps a good record of where nothing could be found. I am not an archeologist (nor a geologist), but I do know that keeping good records makes your investigation much more valuable. But I am sure you and Robert know this.
Oh earthling!
I despair of you sometimes.Why are you so confrontational?
Collette is not paid to serve you.
You have such a sweet and lovely side to you,I know because I've seen it.
shadows
you misunderstand
Shadow, you misunderstand me sometimes.
I was just giving advice about how to use some tools. I am not an archeologist, but knowing where things are found, or not found, is important in these investigations.
I am however a sailor, so I know some things about being able to find locations where you have been, and where you want to go again.
So I just offered this advice, that was all.
This has nothing to do with anything that Collette or Robert will give to us. They will do their investigation as they see appropriate, and then they will report on it as they see fit. I am just pointing out tools that can make their work better.
It's the way you say it, earthling
I know you are not nasty, but sometimes the way you write things comes across as a bit hasty.Maybe you write the way you talk as I do.I have to be very careful because I have a bit of a smart-arse way of talking, and it sometimes carries on into my writing unless I am careful.
And it is OK when you are talking because people can see your face and know it is not meant as it sounds.
It is different in print, as I am learning.You don't have any body language to guide you.
When I am writing an article or even a blog I am fine because I adopt the proper writing style, but in ordinary posts I am sometimes taken the wrong way as I sound terse.
It's good that you are a sailor.My son and daughter in law are both captains as I have mentioned before.I am just so proud of them both.It's what I would like to do in my next reincarnation, be a singing sailor bikie bloke.
shadows
yes a common problem
There is not much feedback because of the lack of facial expressions, tones of voice, and similar things.
And because I am normally very short and to the point, I leave out pleasantries that other people feel necessary.
I do this so as not to waste other people's time. I write and talk too much as it is, so I feel I should be short and to the point.
My respect for the people I discuss things with is implied, but I know that this is not gnerally understood.
I do many things wrong, but what has saved humanity so far is that I do not sing. And trust me on this one, the world is a better place. I should get the Nobel Peace price for not singing.
Hello Earthling and all you Sat buffs.....
Hello Earthling and all you Sat buffs.....
I have found the coordinates, they area now listed with the pics on the Bosnian Site, but there is also a link to Google Earth now on the page as well as they have updated their site. I was given the link and then I looked at it. There are some sat images, maybe ones you have seen, then to the right there are links to the different pyramids that are on Google Earth, which I did not open as while I was on Skype they said do not bother, I think you have to open Google Earth up or something. But you can zoom in and out , I am sure you know what you are doing, but, look to the right on the page where the pictures of the sat images are -- the larger ones, on one of them the exact coordinates are listed and then as I say, look to your right on the page, there will be links to each pyramid and temple and there are also thumbnails and then Goggle Earth bits and bobs and so on and so forth. I hope this helps, this is the link that has been updated, but I think you have to open to Google Earth, but I think some of those links take you right there maybe and opens Google Earth first for you???? Or maybe you have to open the program up first......I am not sure as we were speaking and I did not actually do it. I have the program myself, I could never find my house, but got close to it. I live in the woods, It showed a large blotch of white that I think is my pastures, I am not sure.
Please click here for Sat info
Now for the poop:
On the sidelines of thoughts in the streets --There is hopes that some of the Bosnian Government Officials will ban Anthony Harding from returning to Bosnia forever for writing such alarming articles, also misleading people to believe that Sammie did not obtain permits to excavate, it was very choreogrpahed and curved with slander and damage. Here is the link to the very first article Harding wrote for the Times Online on April 25th, almost 2 months before he slipped in for three hours and never told anyone he was there on the site.
Harding's first letter to "The Times Online," April 25th
On Harding's first and only visit to the site no staff member was present. Harding even stated in his second letter he did not cover the site, but only look at a little area of it and then some photographs. His comments in his most recent letter are damaging to the Institution which was legally given permission by the Bosnian Officials to excavate, so, what Harding did was malice, deceiving and fraudulent again. The excavations are not destroying the "Hill" and if they were, they would be shut down as they are monitored just like any other organization. So, it is moreso a joke, but kidding on the square - meaning , yes many of them would love to never see him again -- but that is the poop. "BAN HARDING " for he abused his position in power and has made fraudulent accusations and damages have occurred through his remarks in the effect of what is known as "defamation of character and slander," --not only to the Institute but to the Bosnian Government and other Officials. Any archaeologist of standing who makes hard claims as fact by just photographs is not following scientific methodology, thereby revoking their oath of standards and integrity. For Harding to be President of the European Association of Archaeologists, he is representing a body of individuals when he makes such statements such as he did, which is ruthlessly unfair to the other members of the Association who have not made opinions and called shots with out a"discovery motion." He is an embarrassment as well to the Association to some degree as some would describe it. As far as Zahi, that is another long story and highly suspect in itself as to why and how that letter was written in the style it was....too long to get into now and I do not have enough info yet to properly disclose. That is an area I may never want to venture further into.
I will be glad to get over the negative phase of this and Robert and I see for ourselves what is up and give straight reporting and analyses without an agenda. I am only in contact, by phone, Skype and email. But, everyone I have worked with is top notch so far and very gracious and accommodating and as I have said you can hear it is their voices....... their tone is quite gentle and they seem to me to be serious and quite in joy, very positive and genuine beings. I truly look forward to getting through the next few weeks and the stress of it all and being the middle person in a sense due to translation. Now watch for some forums to attack my translations - God will it ever cease?
There was praise for The Daily Grail again today as well as Astrea magazine and their coverage. There is much gratitude for those who are not being "harsh," as it was stated, and giving them at least a chance to see what it is that is there. There will be some Egyptians coming over in late July, early August while we are going to be there, one, an Egyptian reporter who is very interested in the supposed pyramid or complex and the story from the beginning. He will be on site for a long period of time interviewing and processing info. He will not just fly in for a day, from what I understand he will be staying there for about a week or more.
I understand that Bosnia's main manufacturing industry is leather goods, that Bosnia is famous for its leather production of jackets and fine accessories .. Most of their tourism trade for local souvenirs is commercially manufactured as they have not yet recovered from the war, but they hope to be getting into arts and crafts again and hand made products. Their attitude is one of rebuild and get on with life in a peaceful way, the war affected many people including civilians and military persons as well as the psyche of the nation, so they are on a mend and very supportive of one another. I am talking about the single business man and the little wife and children too, not just the big businesses and trading, I am talking about the ALL. It is quite a remarkable story once you begin to comprehend it; it is endearing to the soul. They are now receiving up to at times hundreds of volunteers a day to seek direction on how to help and be part of this "magnificent " journey. These volunteers come prepared and fend for themsleves they do not look for handouts. This event over a supposed pyramid, has brought the country together as well as neighboring countries. It is in some ways like a novel of, "From Ruins and Despair to Love and Unification," which shows the strength and endurance of the Bosnian people. It also reminds me of the Russians when they had to recover from World War I, II and oh my God, I hope we are not looking at number III here soon with Bush....AAaaahhhhhhhhhh -- I always scream when I am worried or freaked out.
This information I received today was from various individuals, I want it to be known not one of them was Sammie or Mario, and it is not propaganda on Sammie's, Mario's or the Insitute part. This information came from many sources -- some from citizens of Bosnia who live there as well as citizens who have moved to another country to get out of the war zone and who still go home to take care of their loved ones and piece their life together. Some individuals are residing in the United States now, the UK and elsewhere.I am trying to give as clear a picture as I can while I am perceiving the info as it is being fed to me through the various people I have contacted that do not know me so as to not be biased, but have spoken freely and answered my questions .
Ok then, that is it.
C
Well, I wrote this up on word so you can read my writing before I read about the GPS, yes, we are prepared.
I am writing for everyone. I got interested in it when I first started reading the news from various sources, and then when Greg posted it I got more interested in it, and I have just been doing what I do, research and write and find the scoop on things, I never took anything as demanding, more so as some one was looking for some info so I thought if I can get it, I would try, and I did, plus more. it has been a very interesting day.
A few months ago when I first read about this, no one could have told me I would be invited to go, I would never have believed them, but, I was and I am dragging Robert with me as with out Robert why would I go? And with out me, Robert would not have gone. Robert and I spoke about this, as with out each other we would not probably have gone. We needed each other to pull it together to go and he was very surprised when I asked, "Hey, you want to go to Bosnia? I just got in contact with them over there and said I wanted to come and help and see what is going on." Now we are just trying to be as responsible as we can and do our job. As most of you know I am very curious and I have always been into anomalies research as that is what I am renown for. I just want every one to enjoy what is going on and I wish for people to stop with the insults on other forums and sites that are based from ignorance, jealousy and stupid Sh8t......point blank...........It disgusts me.
Oh yeah curious I am, I actually have been wanting to ask a question again, but have been too consumed with this Bosnia stuff as it is very time consuming...But, I have a real question that I have been thinking about for quite awhile. I just have to figure out how to phrase it and ask it, but it has to do with God...You know I am very curious about God as well.
haha...I wonder if I will ever meet him or be invited to heaven?
Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net
Yes, I'm waiting for
Yes, I'm waiting for Dr.Schoch's assessment. He is geologist, and even more, I'm convinced that he will give honest and inpartial assessment, what ever outcome would be. On some other threads I met geologists that assessed every single picture from excavations in Bosnia as "jointed bedrock). We need independent geological assessment, and I think that Dr.Schoch is excellent person for that. Whatever he founds out about the origin of Visochica Hill stone blocks, I will trust him.
some background info
Hello to everyone from Bosnia,
there are some links to texts which might be interesting for all who cover bosnian pyramids story. Texts reffer to wider picture of Balkans prehistory.
As I said before, scripts (Vinca Script) has been found on large prehistoric sites in the region. This script predates Sumerian for at least 2.000 years (Lepenski Vir Culture 7.000-5.000 BC) and Vinca Culture (5000 - 3000 BC).
How Vinca Script looks like you can see on this page:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.ht...
On following page you'll find large PDF file about Vinca script from american proffesor Griffin:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8...
(when you get to page, just click on large title "Vinca Script")
About Vinca culture in general you can read here:
http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/vin...
Early neolithic culture (7000-5000 BC) of Lepenski Vir, beside Vinca script, is also interesting because its inhabitants had advanced knowledge of mathematics and geometry, used in their architecture. I'm not good at mathematics, so I can't explain, but I read that they used some mathematical method discovered 8000 years later, in 18th century AD. Still, you can read a text at Wikipedia, whish also mentions their knowledge in mathematics (under Architecture chapter):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vi...
It is also interesting that the shape of houses of Lepenski Vir Culture (wieved from above, i.e. shape on the ground,) resembles (simbolicly) human figure in the pyramid. Many archeologists noticed that. All houses of Lepenski Vir are the same, following same pattern. Pictures of those houses you can see here:
http://www.yurope.com/people/nena/Vir/ar...
(this page about Lepenski Vir architecture is unfortunatelly not in english, but pictures tells their story, particularely last two pictures on the page).
the reason why I'm mentioning these advanced neolithic cultures is that they may be in close relationship with Bosnia. First, they are not so far away (about 300 km) from Bosnia, and secondly, many archeologists consider that Bosnian Butmir Culture (3000-1500, near Sarajevo)is only younger phase of Vinca Culture. And Butmir culture sites are only few miles from Visoko, and Visochica Hill.
In their denial of possible bosnian pyramids, many archeologists are saying that no culture on Balkans peninsula was capable of pyramd building. Well, that is not true.
Today we know that some prehistoric culture was builing pyramids in Greece (although much smaller than pyramids in rest of the world) about 3000 BC. I call it "prehistoric" culture, because as far as I know, first Greek script appeared about 2000 BC (linear B script from Crete). But it is possibility that Greeks have built it, Greeks who predate ancient Greeks we know from history books.
another lie from Mr. Mark Rose
dear friends,
very often Foundation that is excavating alleged bosnian pyramids publicly was accused for lying.
Other, accusing side was always "right". But things are not that simple. On Archaeology Magazine Mr. Mark Rose is having his column dedicated to Osmanagich's Foundation. So there we can read:
"Meanwhile, Canadian archaeologist Chris Mundigler, whose name had been mentioned as a foreign expert scheduled to work on the "pyramid" excavation, has written to ARCHAEOLOGY, saying that he does not endorse and never agreed to work on the project."
whole text link:
http://www.archaeology.org/online/featur...
Of course, that should add another international shame on Foundation, and Osmanagich himself.
But truth is bit different. Foundation published Mr. Mundiger's e-mail to Osmanagich, where he's asking a job with the Foundation. The e-mail is on Foundation website, and I'm copying it here:
Original Message
From: InCA Research Services
To: osmanagic@msn.com
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Employment enquiry
December 30, 2005
Mr. Osmanagich,
I am writing to enquire as to the possibility of full-time / part-time
salaried, and/or contractual work you may have in your organization for
either archaeological research and/or GIS / mapping - both in-office and in
the field.
Ideally, I would very much like to work for you from my home office in
Canada on such matters as GIS; research and publication graphics, mapping
and illustration; data analysis and interpretation; technical and report
writing; and the like - all of which I have done for other companies via
long-distance. Other than that, I would consider working wherever you may
have an opening that you feel might suit my qualifications and experience.
As way of a brief introduction, I have accumulated more than 20 years of
experience in archaeological research in southern Europe (Greece and Italy),
the Middle East (Jordan and Syria), North Africa (Morocco) and North America
(Canada), and have had the privilege of teaching at university for 11 years
now in the subjects of archaeology; anthropology; ancient history,
technology and religions.
The specialties I offer include illustration and drafting (plans, sections,
artifact reconstruction); photographic, photogrammetric and media services;
survey and planning; archaeological field services; administration,
logistics and project management; CAD, GIS, and terrain modelling; GPS
planning and surveying; writing and publication services. I am especially
interested in doing mapping, illustration, CAD, GIS and analysis work for
you on your projects from my home-base on the west coast of Canada.
I would like the opportunity of sending you my Curriculum Vita for your
further perusal and welcome any questions or comments you may have.
Thank you in advance for your consideration,
Chris Mundigler
So obviously, it was Mundigler who first contacted Osmanagich, and when he couln't get full salary, he allegedly writes to Archaeology Magazine, washing his hands and portraiting Osmanagich as a lier.
Looks like cold war here...and it looks very sad that Mr.Rose is misusing it publicly. I wonder, how low can he go?