Mexican Law Pursues Folk Healers & Charlatans
Posted by red pill junkie at 17:46, 13 Jun 2010
Street seers, palm-readers, urban shamans, beware! Your days are numbered —well, in Mexico anyway.
Last week, the Supreme High Court ruled out that witches, wizards, yerberos and shamans can be now charged with fraud:
The judges said that one of the articles of the penal code “defines in a clear, precise and exact manner the essential elements of the crime of specific fraud, according to which ... there is no uncertainty or arbitrariness.”
They also said that the beliefs or spiritual or ideological practices of people are not to be penalized, “but rather the fraudulent deception that occurs through the offer to perform fortune telling, invocations (of spirits) or healings” in exchange for money.The case motivating the decision was one heard by a judge in San Luis Potosi, who sentenced two individuals to eight years in prison and a fine for acting as folk healers and providing to their victims “potions or (drinks) to combat their physical maladies.”
This is indeed an interesting development, because the belief in magic cures for all kind of maladies is permeated in ALL sectors of the Mexican society —and if you don't believe me, please read my last post entitled Office Witchcraft! ;)
On the other hand, I can't help to find this a bit of like a... well, a witch hunt! For the text implies that it will only take one accusation to press charges against one of those alleged healers; it's hardly unlikely that the Mexican government is going to establish some sort of Secretary of Magical Affairs, in order to confirm the alleged supranatural abilities of those offering their service to the public. And while I've no doubt in my mind that most of those folks are INDEED nothing but charlatans profitting from the ignorance and superstition of their clients, I can't help but wonder...
What if some of those are the real deal? How do you separate the wizardly wheat from the charlatan chaff?
Hmm... come to think of it, I guess we do need some sort of Secretary of Magical Affairs after all! And if they get to business, why stop with just the folk healers operating on the street? Every day I turn on te TV I suffer the bombardment of commercials from astrologers and psychics asking you to send an SMS message from your cel phone, in order to receive their "wisdom" —for just the small fee of 6 pesos per message, of course. And there's plenty of 'psychic celebrities' that have become incredibly wealthy thanks to their 1-800 phone lines; people like Walter Mercado, who constantly appear as guests on numerous TV shows making all sort of "predictions".
[ And you thought Liberace had died, right?]
If this new law is going to be of any use, one would think the authorities would also enact a hard scrutiny on these other self-professed psychics as well, correct?
And what about all those miracle cures promoted by shady pharmaceutical companies that are guaranteed to reduce your cellullitis, cure your acne and stop you from ending up as bald as Homer Simpson? Or all those wonderful exercising devices that allow you to lose weight while you're eating ice cream in front of your TV? Surely the Mexican consumer should be entitled to accuse those companies of quackery just as much as those other yerberos— who presumably don't have the luxury of hiring powerful law firms to defend them— right? Right??
In the end of the day, the authorities should acknowledge that not all the charlatans in the world like to dress in funny garments while dancing in circles to the beat of drums. The most dangerous charlatans are the ones dressed in Armani —and those are the ones more likely to have sold their soul to the devil!
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Comments
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
I like this law. I hope that it is applied to all religious clergy also.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I doubt it, my friend.
When the Mexican soccer team left for the world cup in South Africa, they took a priest with them. 'Nuff said :-P
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
If Mexico doesn't win the World Cup or, at the very least, play Japan in the World Cup final, they should investigate the Priest. The Budhist and Shinto Sects in Japan have intervened for The Japanese Soccer Team and the Divine Wind, Kami Kazi, will blow Japan to victory in the World Cup.:)
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Japan defeated Cameroon on their first game, no?
Seems that Shinto priest knew his stuff ;)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
We can say that the Budhist and Shinto Priests, working together, know their stuff. Holland's 3-0 win over Denmark is no reason to worry.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
22 November 2004
2 weeks 15 hours
Indeed Holland winning 3-0 over Denmark is not a problem for Japan, mainly for 2 reasons.
First, they didn't. Holland only won 2-0. No sweat.
Second, Japan only has to worry when they themselves play Holland. That could be a little trickier.
But you never know, have to play the game first before coming to conclusions. And Holland has been kown to self destruct, too many egos on the team sometimes.
----
We are the cat.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Mexico defeated France 2-0 —sheesh, someone might think I care about this game!— so I guess the priest took out the pimped Rosary with this game :-P
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
It looks like the Priest has his act together!
But, I really do want all relevant groups to be subject to your new law and I want other countries, including Japan, to adopt it.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Earthling,
The Holland match is going to be very, very,...very tricky for the Japanese team. But, we have the Divine Wind on our side. It saved Japan from invading Mongols twice in the 13th century. So, the World Cup might not be a problem.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
22 November 2004
2 weeks 15 hours
Yes indeed, it is good to have confidence.
I think it will save Japan from the World Cup too, it won't be a problem :)
----
We are the cat.
18 September 2007
6 hours 28 min
Amusing to watch this thread ADHD off topic onto the World Cup topic with such tenacity. Obviously, someone needs to start a World Cup thread here on TDG.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I'm not a fan of, what some call it, "the sport of Man". Yet right now I can't help to find interesting that in this particular World Cup, there's a change afoot —pardon the pun. All the usual big teams are losing against the smaller ones. It looks like THIS is the first true WORLD cup.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
14 April 2009
18 sec
Quick, someone should give that government a Narcissus operation.
---------
All that lives is holy, life delights in life.
--William Blake
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I understand the need for Fortean trickery in our lives once in a while. But that's not the same as condoning spiritual con-men to exploit the despair and aspirations of gullible citizens.
There's an esoteric bazaar in a Mexican strip mall when you can buy all sorts of lucky charms and magical talismans. The merchants assure their costumers that each particular talisman will grant them their heart's desire: money, success, luck, love, etc.
Yet the other day someone on the radio read a newspaper article related to the lack of sales these magical merchants were experiencing lately. How ironic that people who claim to sell sure-proof talismans that are guaranteed to grant fame and fortune are having economic problems themselves! It's like going to a Nutriologist who happens to be a fat-ass that has suffered two heart attacks —not exactly reassuring.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
2 weeks 15 hours
Their problem is that they know they are selling placebos. Consequently, the placebos don't work.
----
We are the cat.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Or maybe they are like me: I'm a designer, and I can't afford my own designs ;)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
I remember reading somewhere that the falloff rate is higher for alternative and mythos based systems such as these compared to more standard ones. The data made it look like that when people have expendable money they will spend it on magical remedies and more stand ones, but when money is squeezed they cut back on the magical ones before cutting back on the mainstream ones, hinting at where trust might really lie and perhaps lending weight to an understanding based on the 'what hurt can they really do?' model. The perception being that because they do no harm people invest in them, only losing money but gaining hope. When money is restricted people sacrifice hope and invest in what they trust more.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Where was this study based on?
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
Sadly it is one of those 'i remember reading somewhere' things. God knows what it was based on or how it was done. I think it was recent though - as in it is during this global downturn. I guess an assessment of the profit margins and the number of alternative businesses going bust would reveal if there was any truth to it.
(I guess for me these methods don't jumpstart my hope centres so they are not really marketable to me. My hope actually comes from mainstream medicine, which hopefully means my placebo response is tied to mainstream concoctions, which should save me some money as I should get the benefits they do from what I get free from my health service, especially in such stuff as free hope and placebo's - I should have the positive affects of placebo from paracetamol and aspirin as well as chemotherapy etc, should I ever need it)
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
The paradox for me is this: as a modern patient, i feel one should have the responsibility to educate yourself as much as possible, to question your physician's judgments and ask for seconds or triple opinions before accepting to submit yourself to a painful/expensive/doubtful procedure.
But at the same time, would that approach curtail the potential benefits of the placebo effect, which might be more potent when you have a blind faith in the person in whose hands you put your health?
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
Hmmmm, maybe what you say illustrates it perfectly.
It is far more important to make sure you have the correct diagnosis and that your physician isn't mistaken than worry about the placebo affect. Perhaps it does weaken the placebo affect, though I am sure this will return once you 'trust' (I highlight that since surely the word relates to some pretty big neurological implications itself and is probably part of the placebo 'system') the diagnosis.
What I am getting at is that your chances of survival are best helped by correct diagnosis and treatment, and not by placebo. I guess this is why placebo is not recommended for much beyond neuro processing issues (where it seems to be at its most powerful) such as in the interpretation and sensation of pain, or in depression etc.
I sort of imagine it like this. Imagine you have an injury somewhere in your body. The injury is transmitting pain signals to your mind. You have some ability to control how those pain signals are processed (or felt) so placebo can work very well in issues of pain, but if you want to fix the injury you will require something else. This gets slightly more complex in issues where the body can repair itself since reduced stress (which can be assisted by reduced pain, and hence placebo) can help in natural healing. In issues where the body cannot repair itself placebo doesnt work very well at all, though it can make you feel better as it all goes to pot.
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
This law must be extended to organized religion. And, I sincerely hope other countries adopt laws like this and apply them to organized religion also.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
We live in a funny world.
Many of the most ferverent non-believers are only arguing for the dismantlement of the cultural taboo in questioning religion, and perhaps better education to teach people of theologies presumptuous break from philosophy.
I guess the hope would be that by taking samples of the wine it is possible to show by lack of DNA or red blood cells etc that it has not been bodily transmuted into blood, i.e that you can win by argument, not by just making things illegal.
I think you should only legislate in cases that cause actual harm (sadly, while disinformation might be intellectual harm I don't think we can class it as real harm; education should be the correct response to disinformation). Placebo products (and their surrounding narrative) might reduce public understanding of how real products work and so jepodise correct decision making (such as in cases of child death resulting from use of prayer over medicine), but I don't think you can simply legislate against mythos.
Better to educate and shift the culture so something just becomes viewed as silly.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
As an agnostic/theistic/weirdo, I can certainly see the fallacy of trying to boost the relevance of religions through their most outlandish claims, which are usually the least unprovable.
If a Christian comes to me and says the the wine of the communion does transubstantiate into human hemoglobine, it gets less respect from me than the Christian who points out that the importance of the communion is the communal remembrance of the brotherly love expressed between Jesus and his followers —that I can respect.
And yet, in each religion there are numerous accounts of really unexplainable events: bleeding hosts, weeping statues, unexplained healings, etc. Is that proof of the pedigree of a particular religion, or is perhaps evidence that, sometimes, through religion the psychic energy of human intention can alter some aspects of our reality?
Agreed, but Science needs to do more: it needs to confront those absurd and unexplained events instead of just rejecting them with contempt. This is a vicious cycle: the more rejection from Science, the more common people feel disenchanted by Science and the alternative explanations attain more appeal.
Science cannot turn away from the irrational, for it is a fundamental aspect of human nature.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
2 weeks 15 hours
Oh but you see, the wine only turns into real blood when you're not testing it. The blood of Jesus, not just plain old every day human blood. But only when you're not testing.
----
We are the cat.
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
It sounds a little like that might start happening.
The thing that science has been very bad at is realising that having evidence on your side is not a guarantee that your gonna win an argument.
We might see science get a bit more canny as a whole towards PR, but then again alot of scientists are cautious about that - not to mention that alot of scientists also like to hold unevidenced viewpoints, especially outside of their field of expertise.
Like you say. It is the human condition.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
The problem to me is that people approach religions with a merchant's mentality: what's in it for me? what do I get out of it? (immortality, wealth, happiness, etc etc).
If people viewed religions only as toll to help you feel integrated to something bigger than yourself, and to feel an actual brotherly link with everybody else, then nobody would speak ill of religions —beginning with me!
As for me, slowly I came to the conclusion that asking for things for yourself is utterly worthless. I'm still uncertain about the possible benefits of praying for someone else's benefit, though. The whole "we make our own reality" and the joining of mental focus in a prayer group might bring unexpected results. But it's very probable that prayer sought solely as a way to gain some material gain is a waste of time.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
Whats the old joke?
Each night I prayed for a new bike and each morning I woke to nothing, but then i realised God helps those who help themselves so I went out and stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness?!
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
The only way to sell religion is with the "What's In It For Me" angle. Christians glorify the supposed horrid torture and death of Jesus! Why? What's so glorius about it? But, it has helped christianity to spread like wild fire for centuries. Let's party! Jesus suffered horribly; so that, I won't have to suffer! Wonderful, I can do anything that I want to do and be forgiven by you know who! So, let's party!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I guess that's the basic sex-appeal Christianity —to be differentiated from the moral teachings of Jesus— had among European pagans, and that's why they were so easily converted (Jesus did all the hard work for me; only thing left to do is have a bath and eat some bread).
And yet... these cynic remarks fail to explain the great number of martyrs that were willing to suffer for Christ. That's another aspect of the human psyche in which Christianity burrowed deep roots.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
I respect people who are willing to stand-up and die for what they believe in; but, their actions do not prove the correctness of their beliefs. And, the christian church exploits martyrs actions for its own benefit. In fact, it's even created some of its Martyrs. Martyrs are merely patriotic church members. The psychological need for religion is, in my opinion, divisive and dangerous; because, it usually blinds us to reality. How many people are looking forward to the end of the world? Is this healthy or unhealthy? Does this stop terrorism and make the world a better place? Will this give children a better world to grow up in?
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I can agree with your view that religion can be another form of amorphous nationalism, and an excuse for an "us against them" mentality.
Well, at this point I think it's necessary to remind us that we're really talking here about institutionalized religion. Otherwise we would be painting all the spiritual yearnings of man with the same brush —and that would be unfair & naive.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Red Pill,
You hit the nail on the head! {Es Verdad! Hablo Espanol muy poco!}
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Seguro que tu Español es mucho mejor que mi Japonés ;)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
14 April 2009
18 sec
So what do you think aboot the concept that what this law is doing is that it isn't trusting people to be able to make their own decisions?
---------
All that lives is holy, life delights in life.
--William Blake
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
It is definitely doing that.
Its funny though, perhaps sensitivity occurs because we might like it to be true that some bit of purple quartz crystal can cure cancer. Trading and advertising standards are nothing new.
Perhaps there is a line between believing in something yourself and then trying to sell it to other people, one is passive and one is active - even if the sale is only requiring disinformation.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I don't know if it should be viewed entirely like that.
I guess it's partly a reflection of the philosophy in which the Post-revolutionary Mexican state was founded upon —paternalistic; it might hurt the sensitivity of more modern liberals... but then again, Mexico has enjoyed free health care for many years, while others are just catching up :-P
Yes, on a perfect society with adequately educated citizens, this sort of law would be completely unnecessary.
But the harsh reality is that we do not live in such an utopia. And perhaps this law can help some misguided people get a second chance after foolishly putting their trust in the hands of con artists.
If people weren't allowed to rectify their early judgments, there wouldn't be divorce courts, right? ;)
And like I said, con-artists are to be found ANYWHERE, so IMO this law might be needed to expand into other fields where dubious claims are common.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I would be awful interested in finding out whether these folk healers actually believe their own publicity. You can't judge a person for being a fool... well, maybe you can? it might depend on the impact of your beliefs on other people.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
Dan Dennetts research into priests who no longer believe is partially relevant here.
I think this is also complicated by the fact that some people want to be conned. That might seem a bit of a perversion of the truth, but you hit a brick wall of philosophy with some people where it becomes about poo poo'ing things rather than about the specifics. You can see a trend where debates actually disintergrate into philosophy where anything becomes easy to defend, since there are no right or wrong answers.
From what i've read self belief in these things is often the reality, perhaps not by the people up at the top, but it seems to be the case for the people on the streets who have picked it up and are running with it.
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
Inannawhimsey,
I trust people. But, it is too easy to take advantage of people. So, people need to be protected from people who just want to cheat them. We need to get the cheats off the street and go fishing on Sunday.
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
21 February 2009
1 day 6 hours
I was taught as a kid 'if it seems too good to be true, it probably is'. This seems to have served me quite well.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
Today I had to pay 1600 pesos (about 123 US dollars) for a new car battery; for a car that is only two years old.
Let's just say i didn't exercise sufficient skepticism when I was lulled into buying a FIAT —and the saleswoman didn't even use chicken bones on me! :)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
59 sec
I once read a magazine piece where the writer insisted Fiats are the perfect "green" car. Any given Fiat is designed to quickly self-biodegrade! For longest utility, you might want to make sure you park it out of the rain. Before you wonder, I will likely be busy searching the roadside for the last piece to fall off of my Ford. :)
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
@_@
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
14 April 2009
18 sec
Inannawhimsey,
I trust people. But, it is too easy to take advantage of people. So, people need to be protected from people who just want to cheat them. We need to get the cheats off the street and go fishing on Sunday.
One of the reasons "we are here" is to make sure Universal Human Rights get to EVERYONE ON THE EARTH.
Ever inching toward the asymptopia we are approaching...
---------
All that lives is holy, life delights in life.
--William Blake
28 June 2006
2 days 11 hours
One of the reasons "we are here" is to make sure Universal Human Rights get to EVERYONE ON THE EARTH.
Ever inching toward the asymptopia we are approaching...
I couldn't have said it better!
What do you think?
cnnek
{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}
14 April 2009
18 sec
I understand the need for Fortean trickery in our lives once in a while. But that's not the same as condoning spiritual con-men to exploit the despair and aspirations of gullible citizens.
The State should, then, I think, have dealt with people like Billy Graham and those who instill despair and guilt (Hell, Limbo, and such) into people (and this I consider the REALLY EVIL thing) with the 'best' of intentions.
A word from our sponsor
I guess every State has to balance between Protecting its citizens and Freedom.
---------
All that lives is holy, life delights in life.
--William Blake
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
There's nothing worse than a good-intentioned pendejo :-P
And it's definitely a tricky juggling act indeed!
I don't pretend to have the answers, but I think trying to educate your population as best you can is a step in the right direction. So they can make an appropriate choice between fear and love —as that illuminated man pointed out.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
2 weeks 15 hours
Unfortunately, states often confuse the protection issue. In the guise of protecting the citizens, the state often protects itself. Or worse, it protects particular groups within the state.
----
We are the cat.
12 April 2007
7 min 44 sec
I could rant a whole week re. the eagerness of the Mexican state to sacrifice the lives of its citizens in favor of protecting them from the dangers of drugs... but I don't want to go there at the moment.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie