Main stream media comes no closer to identifying the CRU hackers
Posted by epgrondine at 19:34, 29 Nov 2009Hi -
I suppose I opened this can of worms by expressing my own opinions from my own view, which is fairly unique, after all.
(Once again, I helped develop the Cambridge Conference as a tool for impact research, only to have Benny change it AGW scepticism in January, 2004, leaving all the impact researchers in a communications lurch.)
That said, since there's other threads here at the DG for people to express their opinions on HAARP, chemtrails, and whether or not AGW is real or not, could I simply ask that you take your points or comments on those topics to those threads, and leave this one for the investigation or rather the lack or investigation into the CRU hack itself? (Greg has a nice thread going on AGW, and I am really not the person to talk to on it.)
While my guess right now is an extremely frustrated employee, that's simply a guess, and given the stakes involved, who did the hack and why are important questions that right now are going unanswered, and pretty much unexamined by the main stream media. We're seeing bits of the data trail emerging in different pieces, usually with their own commentary on AGW, but not all in one place, with no examination of the trail.
Was it someone who just wanted to get the data out there for reasons of their own?
Or was it a country, or a corporation, or a lobbying group?
Bookmark/Search this post with:
- epgrondine's blog
- Login or register to post comments
Comments
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
I meant to post it to the entry I had already started. My apologies, I'm new to the user interface here.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
1 May 2004
1 hour 40 min
...if you think your last thread on this was hijacked somewhat. Conversations rarely stay on topic.
My first impression was an inside job. The firewalls these days are very good. If not at completely stopping any hacks, there usually is a tell tale sign of attack as a bot or clever hacker tries to exploit any port.
As the pressure is mounting on these scientists to proove, without a doudt that the earth is in fact warming because of CO2, frustration may well be a trigger for one of them to leak some sensitive information.
I have a question for you, can a meteor, traveling in space, spontaniously explode into fragments?
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Your apology for your earlier diversion is accepted. And as there is no PM function, I'll tolerate the diversion now.
"meteors" are caused by rice to pea sized bits of comets hitting the Earth's atmosphere. The comets themselves do throw off particles of this size when exposed to gravity or solar light and radiation.
It's the bigger pieces that are worrisome, and we will be in the midst of Comet Schwassmann Wachmann's debris stream in 2022. It is not likely that it will all turn into magic comet dust.
IMO, It was not frustration with proving global warming that lead to the hack, but more likely frustration with lack of resources to deal with the magnitude of the task.
On the other hand, former employees, ex-girlfriends, and former business partners are great sources of information, which now days can be delivered via CDrom or data keys.
Trash is another good source. As the saying goes, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
Or it could have been a simple send from inside.
My point is that instead of looking into the hack, all we get are people's interpretations of small pieces from it, with all of the reports showing their own biases.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
1 May 2004
4 weeks 4 days
I hope they've covered their tracks well. We need people to stand up for truth. If this is, what it seems to be. Then I say Bravo!
Bladerunner
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Yes this is just as likely an inside job as a hacker. Given the amount of news coverage that AGW gets, hackers would like the anonymous fame. And there are other agents who would like to make the AGW crowd look bad.
But insiders unhappy for technical reasons, or moral ones, or just personal reasons, are just as likely.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Which is that the climate researchers were underfunded.
Otherwise we would not be having all these lively "debates". We would likely know with some certainty whether we face a problem, and if so, then exactly how severe it is.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
We don't know right now.
As far as "the" truth goes, it appears to be that the magnitude of the task exceeded the resources provided to do it.
From what I've seen of it so far, these people were doing as best they could with really funky data from several hundred years ago.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
The funkiness wasn't enough, apparently the same outfit at East Anglia made it funkier:
Climate change data dumped.
Some people will take this as evidence of conspiracy on their part. I usually prefer incompetence as an explanation when it serves just as well.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
The funkiness wasn't enough, apparently the same outfit at East Anglia made it funkier:
Climate change data dumped.
Some people will take this as evidence of conspiracy on their part. I usually prefer incompetence as an explanation when it serves just as well.
Yes, few will note that the climate change raw data was dumped in the 1980's during a building move, apparently to a smaller facility.
Kind of reminds me of the Apollo 11 moon walk raw broadcast tapes.
Nobody though it was important at the time.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Another way this sort of thing happens in academia is because of personal advancement.
The actual work isn't done by the professors, for the most part. It is done by graduate students, sometimes undergrads. These individuals know such details as what is on tapes, which tapes etc.
Sometimes these students graduate and leave, and nobody in the institution knows where they put things.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/20...
Given the use of the false doors in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, perhaps we can rule out a disgruntled employee, but perhaps not. Whoever did the initial grab could have found a helper.
Obviously, whoever did this was following the story closely, as seen by the use of the weatherman for the first distribution.
Once again, given the amounts of money involved, the player could have been corporate or governmental - if so, William Gibson could turn from fiction to journalism!
Or it could have been somebody intensely motivated to get out the "truth" as he saw it.
Perhaps a Cambridge Conference devotee.
By the way, for those think that the Cambridge Conference played no role, notice that Benny was put in opposition to Hansen in one newspaper piece. What is funny is how balanced Benny's words were there, compared to the usual CC propaganda torrent.
If it was me, I'd check the CC back issues, as the hacker most likely sent the grab to Benny, so the timing might show up there as well.
As a second by the way, you have to remember the role I played in getting the CC going so many years ago, only to have the platform for impact research diverted to other purposes, leaving the impact community high and dry.
While I understand Benny's reasons for doing this, as you might imagine I am a little bitter about this.
And I have privately asked Benny to stick with the science, and to leave out the propaganda, only to have my pleas ignored, particularly on the ozone holes.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
The release seems to have been timed to the Copenhagen round of negotiations. You had the isolated release to the weatherman, and then the use of two different false doors.
Perhaps whoever handled the release knew of the false doors well ahead of the time of release.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Oh probably. But have you noticed that just before the Copenhagen meeting, some seriously dire predictions have surfaced?
Surely the political and commercial AGW proponents are playing mostly the emotional side of this. Science has nothing to do with Al Gore's arguments or with the arguments of the likes of Greenpeace. This is a marketing campaign.
But as for the leak/hack, how about Hansen?
He doesn't like how this is developing, and an agreement at Copenhagen is a failure to him. So he torpedoes the process, in a manner that places the apparent blame somewhere else. Then the way is open to a more fundamental solution.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
12 April 2007
2 min 2 sec
Let me propose a hypothetical question to you Earthling —in fact, for all you people who are in doubt about GW, or even are thoroughly convinced it's nothing but a scam devised by Al Gore to beat Bill Gates in the Fortune polls:
Let's say that you are the director of the IPCC, that you have unquestionable proof that GW is real, and that industrial emissions play a significant role in it.
[Clear your heads of the little voices that are shouting right now that you haven't seen that definitive proof yet. Play along, will ya?]
So... being the head of IPCC, and having the responsibility of telling the world of the dangers ahead, and trying to convice the governments and the public that time is running short, and something must be done to solve the problem...
The question is this: How would you go about it?
I've been reading all these comments criticizing how the "scare mongers" use marketing tactics in order to create an emotional reaction in the public, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Science. And you know what? I agree 100% with you.
BUT, it's very disingenous of you to forget that we live in a world where you have to engage the people from the emotional level, in order to convince them to do something. Sadly, we live in a world where if you don't make use of marketing tactics, you don't accomplish anything.
Gruesome pictures of patients dying with lung cancer have nothing to dow with the scientific evidence that links tobacco with these illnesses. And yet it was to the length of pasting those pictures on the cartons of cigarettes that Health agencies had to resort, in order to get the message through the hard skull of smokers that *YES* smoking kills you dumbass!!
My question still stands then: how would you go and convince the public of the need to make something to stop global warming, without resorting to shady "fear-mongering" marketing tactics?
And I'm not asking because I believe enviromental campaigns are perfect. If they were, maybe we'll not be debating this issue at all! Although maybe with such controversial issues —science vs religion, aobrtion vs prolife, etc etc— any campaign is useless, because people have already formed an opinion based not on logic but on emotional reactions; and no amount of evidence will convince them that they are wrong.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
How would I do this? A fairly straightforward answer for you:
I would use a two-pronged approach.
One part is the usual political, marketing etc approach, to gain the support of groups such as
- those who dedice emotionally,
- those who have vested interests in the status quo,
- those who have other agendas competing for votes
- those who compete for the same resources I need
- etc, the usual mix of opponents
At the same time, I would provide evidence of my genuine scientific motivation, by this radical approach:
- provide full disclosure of my data and my methods
- provide this freely without anyone asking
That's what I would do. That's not what the IPCC is doing, and it is not what the AGW crowd is doing either.
But they are not me.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
12 April 2007
2 min 2 sec
So in your case, the only thing you reproach to them s that they haven't disclosed the data to the public. Or rather, that they haven't disclosed the software that run the computer models in which they based some of their conclusions —we couldn't expect them to give us the codes of the satellites that take IR images of the oceans, right?
In that sense I agree with you. They should have been more open with their data and methods. I think part of impact of the scandal was that these scientists were used to work in an enviroment of privacy that, although it mght be the norm in other disciplines, might have not be in the best of interests of climate science.
BUT... you did agree that a marketing campaign is needed, in order to convince the public that make decisions based on their emotions.
And may I remind you that there are far more of those around, than individuals like you who would make their decisions based on a thorough analysis of the evidence.
Sadly, you are part of a very, very VERY little niche market, my friend :)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Well yes, I doubt their motives because they are not disclosing, voluntarily, their data and methods.
Because they chose not to do this, I am reduced to guessing.
That's really convenient, because then I can be accused of only guessing.
What bothers me considerably is the blatant arrogance of these people and their followers. Everyone who does not believe their argument when they say "trust me" is portrayed as either bad intentioned or lacking in mental facilities.
They say the conclusions are obvious when in fact they need supercomputers, finely tuned with decades of work, to arrive at uncertain predictions. And I am just supposed to believe that?
I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
12 April 2007
2 min 2 sec
I think we can all agree that there's been plenty of displays of arrogance in both sides of the trenches.
And it's not just supercomputers. There's also the evidence of satellite images showing a decrease in the polar caps. u of course that argument is immediately met with the counterargument that in a certain region of Antarctica there has been an increase in the ice extention, right? :-/.
I can tell you this much: this refusal to accept the possibility of anthropogenic global warming is absent in Mexico. Here everyone agrees that GW is real. I believe the same is true in all Latin America —maybe as a result of the entrenched "anti-imperialist" sentiment that's ever present in the latino mentality, I don't know ;)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
And it's not just supercomputers. There's also the evidence of satellite images showing a decrease in the polar caps. u of course that argument is immediately met with the counterargument that in a certain region of Antarctica there has been an increase in the ice extention, right?
A big part of this is the anthropogenic part. Images that show decrease in the polar ice caps (compared to the 1500s??) are one thing.
Concluding with some certainty that this is caused by CO2 output of modern industry is quite another. Even concluding that it is not natural is a big step.
But your last remark is important:
...—maybe as a result of the entrenched "anti-imperialist" sentiment that's ever present in the latino mentality...
is important. Many people want to blame western industrialism for something. Global warming is just the latest thing.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...
Having been spoofed by US hackers working through St. Petersburg, this is all just a little bit too neat for me.
In addition to the hack, and a release timed to Copenhagen, they gained a chance to generate anti-Russian sentiment.
And note how quickly the info suddenly spreads from an obscure server in Tomsk. Like there were no messages of availability sent to a pre-selected group.
And then there's the press release: "We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code and documents. Hopefully it will give some insight into the science and the people behind it."
There was nothing random about the selection. And the phrasing does not sound Russian. "Hopefully"?
Then there's the neat rationale given, involving money for cap and trade carbon rights, which doesn't make sense.
I seem to remember that all of the material first appeared in Turkey, after selected bits were sent to a UK weatherman.
And let's see, the info shows up on a computer used by a Russian scientist concerned that AGW could catastrophically release methane. So that machine might have been an earlier target.
Let's see what happens next...
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
I still find it interesting that the authenticity of the data has not been questioned, only the significance.
What I say looks like a bunch of directories of someone's account on one computer.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Another story on the hack:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/en...
This time they noted that the content was not simply random.
Some of the emails were first distributed 12 October, while the latest of them was from 12 November. The intrusions ran over a long period of time.
Given Benny's long and leadership role in scepticism, I wonder if they were given to him, and if so when, or if they were passed indirectly to him.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
The UN official presented their views, or claims:
[quote]
...but was a sophisticated and well-funded attempt to destroy public confidence in the science of man-made climate change...
[\quote]
that's not a statement of fact.
Especially the "well funded" part looks obviously partisan.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/12/...
The motive is now ascribed to Russia's desire to continue oil sales, or to avoid having to make changes to its energy production.
But why would Russian hackers host the data on their own machine, leaving a massive fingerprint? They wouldn't.
And the fluency with English, and the selection of materials, and the timing of the release.
The main stream media continues to ignore the hack itself, and so far the computer trade papers have not had much to say.
A government? A corporation?
William Gibson: fiction meets real life. A very interesting case.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Personally I think an inside job is likely.
But it could also be slightly more complicated: once the files are on a publicly available machine, copies spread out very quickly. The bots run by Google, Yahoo, Yandex and the rest visit every server, every page, open every file and directory, and click on every link and every button. Every day.
So the original inside job could have been done without intent. Or the second level distribution could have been done without intent.
As for the timing of the release - certainly that was done for maximum effect. Almost certainly by someone with an agenda. But they were probably sitting on the data for quite some time.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
I expect everything, whether via telephone or computer, to be read or heard. I keep critical work and files isolated.
For com work, I used obscure OS, dialers, browsers, and it held for 8 years; then the penetration came at the same time as my stroke. Much much later I was able to trace it back to some St. Petersburg machines, which were used as doorways.
Kakoi durash.
schwa
While people are the easiest way into any network, what I'm going with now is that whoever did this hates Russia, and wanted to call attention to the Russian hacks from Tomsk. That leaves a whole lot of candidates...
A message trail probably runs right through the Cambridge Conference archive, as undoubtedly they notified Benny when they first got the data. He'd been calling for its release for a long while... but this one is beyond one individual; maybe a hacker group with the usual hacker mental defects, you know, powerless in real life, but kings within their own little world...
But this could be national or corporate as well...
See my earlier post on this. Its really funny to consider what I helped to launch from 80 people attending a SIS conferenceon impacts, and then what Benny did with the tool for impact research I helped him to create. Would AGW scepticism have come to where it is today without me? Maybe, but not likely.
My problem, Senator, is my sister... (a variation on a very old inside the beltway joke, from the Mort Sahl show.)
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/FOIA_Lea...
But once again note the time stamps, and the times of the releases, and the methods of release.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
I haven't done any sort of analysis, unlike the guy at your link. But it certainly looks like someone just grabbed a directory or two and zipped them. Nothing indicating that they collected emails over a period of time.
Time stamps are so easily forged it's not even funny that some people take them as evidence, see here for example.
What is alarming is that some researchers, and organizations, hide these data and methods from freedom of information access requests. The fate of civilization is at stake, and they won't release the reasons why they tell us this? That seems criminal to me.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
1 May 2004
1 hour 40 min
if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, then you have a 99.9% chance that it is a duck!
They are hiding something and will not come clean. The media are not giving this the attention it deserves. Now we have death threats against these scientists and the media is focusing on that. Snow job.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
The topic is the hack.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
The hack/leak may be technically criminal or not, depending on who did it and why.
Hiding the information is criminal in a moral sense, if the situation is really as dire as claimed. It is technically criminal if done in a place where freedom of information laws are in place.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Hi Earthling -
I don't know UK computer law, so I can't comment on your first point as to "leak" versus "hack" - for that matter we don't know right now with certainty which it was. But in either case the motive seems to have been to cause as much doubt as possible, as we can see from the timing. Whether you view that doubt as good or bad depends on your own analysis of the AGW hazard, or if there is one.
Now let us assume that the researchers think the situation is dire, and that they concluded that the reason why the information was desired was simply to create as much doubt as possible, and more work for them, when as we can see they were stressed to the max already - funky data, funky codes, funky programs, and not enough resources to deal with it all. They know the doubt will lead to inaction with dire consequences; what to do?
But the bottom line, for me anyway, is that they claim to be scientists, so they have a responsibility to release data and models, and take what comes. Theoretically that is the way science works, though in the real world it doesn't, and I've seen that in US federal impact research up close and personal.
In practical terms if they had of done that then, they would not be facing this now.
Where they stand in terms of UK FOIA law I don't know. My thinking is that here in the US, I'm fairly certain bad scientists, engineers, and managers know enough to use personal off system emails and voice communications to discuss "delicate" matters.
I'd like to keep this thread on the hack.
I'll just express my opinion that here in the US, there are things that need to be done to improve our energy systems, that may have the additional benefit of reducing CO2, things that actually would save money and result in lower costs.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
I am sure these scientists are convinced that they are trying to move the world towards a better future. I just wish they were a little more honest about it.
One of the ways burning less oil would lower costs is that we would not fight wars in the Middle East. There would be less terrorism from those parts if there was less unearned money in the region. Another side benefit.
But back to the hack/leak. I don't think that what it is used for provides any clues as to where it came from. Once the stuff is available, that's on autopilot.
I favour an inside job. An extremist who doesn't think Copenhagen goes far enough is possible, but unlikely.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
When Benny took the CC over to AGW scepticism, he cited Michael Crichton's work. That's on a rational level, but on a more emotional level Benny is very pro-Israeli, and any international agreement on CO2 means that international pressure might be brought on ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, ending settlement expansion. Along with the constant stream on the futility of any AGW solutions, or any negotiations, propaganda on that topic was occasionally circulated by him via the Cambridge Conference.
While I concur with Benny that cap and trade won't work, any routes to reasonable consensus or solutions he did his best to stop or not to mention, and as far as his science got, it got bad. His attitude towards the ozone holes and their possible effects was telling.
Back to the hack, the transmittal routes are one way to track it.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Hi Earthling -
The time codes on the emails are telling. Apparently this was ongoing, as some of the later releases include emails not in the first releases.
No question but that the data should have been released, as our future is at stake, and we will end up paying one way or another.
But as for criminality, there is big money involved, and big money can buy you some of the worst "science" and most useless "discussion" possible.
Take a look at some of the "discussion" right now, referring to earlier climate models as though they were the current ones. As Greg so aptly noted in regard to tobacco-lung cancer "researchers" "our job is to create doubt".
If you want criminality, take a look at the ozone hole research, and what happened to the studies on them.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Whether there is money involved has no bearing on the legality of keeping data and methods secret.
That polluters have money is a lame excuse for not revealing the science. How about honesty for a change? Someone, anyone.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
While one hopes for a purity in science, I can tell you that having watched impact research here in the US for over a decade, that's not the way it works. Science is done by people, scientists, and they need money like everyone else.
Some scientists get funded, others do not; some science results get reported, others do not. Peer review can fail, when the peer is a participant.
Morrison versus Clube and Napier on cometary impact has to be one of the pettiest, nastiest "discussions" ever to have occurred in the history of science, and will make a great story someday. Given the large numbers of people who may die in the next impact, this has not been a trivial "discussion", and it is far from over.
We actually had NASA Administrator Michael Griffin ignore direct instructions from the Congress of the United States to find the next one of these before it hits. Do you think that there is any email record of his contempt of Congress? Do you think any of it will ever come out?
Again, I don't know UK FOIA statutes. When Benny turned the Cambridge Conference from an impact research clearing house to AGW scepticism, he sold out Clube and Napier to gain Morrison's endorsement. His circulation grew from 800 to 8,000, and now there is the "Global Warming Policy Foundation".
Its damn frustrating looking for an honest man. That is why I am enjoying this exchange with you.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
7 March 2009
6 weeks 2 days
Anyone who has been paying attention to alternative news sources over the last decade should realize the sheer magnitude of murderous deceit that the elitist power-players have been willing to stoop to. So pardon me if I doubt any motives of altruism on their part. I personally think the elitists would LOVE to have a major percentage of humans disappear, so I really doubt their scare-tactics regarding Global Warming are for the public's good. It's just a tax-and-control scheme. Wake up and smell the damn coffee already. How much longer are the hypnotized liberals (who should know better, and usually do) going to keep following this lame "green" fad that Public Service Announcements and shills like Matt Lauer have scared them into believing?
Look at how the media, in collusion with government, plays the public like a violin----they spent 8 years of Bush making Republicans look like idiots ON PURPOSE; then they sank McCain by selecting another idiot Republican ON PURPOSE as his running mate. That ensured Obama's victory, as it was INTENDED to. The elitists knew that the public had lost all trust in the conservative image, and that it was time to put on a liberal mask for awhile---to trick the public into thinking "Change" had come to America! Sheer fantasy.
So now, all they have to do to imply Global Warming is real is to put Sarah Palin on TV and say, "Well SARAH PALIN doubts the science of Global Warming!" It's painfully obvious that the media WANT you to think it's an idiotic position to take, and that only a superstitious, un-educated, conservative bimbo like Palin would doubt Global Warming. The unspoken implication is, "Are you on HER side? Do you doubt Global Warming like THIS FUCKING IDIOT does?!" They use Glen Beck the same way. I can't stand either of those morons, so to see them deny Global Warming is very frustrating, because I can clearly see that they are merely being used as "useful idiot" pawns to scare Americans away from questioning Global Warming.
Are the American people really so lacking in attention span and critical thinking as to not notice these heavy-handed, sneaky rhetorical techniques? When I first saw _An Inconvenient Truth_, I was amazed at the sheer dearth of info/data/analysis. It was so superficial on the science, and so heavy on Gore's ego, close-ups of him pensively staring out the window and Caring for the Planet... The majority of this Global Warming stuff is really just media hype. The pro-warming sites/shows/ads/articles I see all tend to be much more shallow than the ones questioning Global Warming.
I used to believe in Global Warming myself, back when Dubya would deny it, I thought, "You lying bastard oil-man..." Well it turns out the energy & auto companies are behind Global Warming too, folks---because they stand to reap MEGA-BUCKs from cap-and-trade legislation. If those Copenhagen delegates really cared so much for the environment, how come they came in luxury limos & personal aircraft, with a Grand Total of FOUR stinking hybrid vehicles in attendance!!! It's blatantly obvious that these fear-mongers don't even believe in the problem themselves, and yet some people keep falling for the oooga-booga....
Our modern, mainstream media are nothing but corporate henchman for the government. Why have such a consolidation of media ownership unless you can really use it, right? It's not like we have a bunch of competing viewpoints in America, these days. It's all sound-bites, blurbs, and superficial tabloid fodder about Tiger Woods's affairs, etc. A dumbed-down populace will swallow lies much more easily than an informed citizenry...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colum...
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/th...
http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites...
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2009/12/...
Details about cap-and-trade:
http://www.nocapandtrade.com/the-facts/
ClimateGate petition, listing negative impacts of cap-and-trade and science of AGW in general:
http://www.globalclimatescam.com/petition/
Jon Stewart on ClimateGate:
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Hi the end -
The topic of this thread is the hack ITSELF. Greg started a nice thread on AGW, where your thoughts on AGW may be more appropriate.
You may want to think about why the main stream media is giving so little coverage/investigation into the hack itself. Then you might be able to figure out who those "elites" you speak are, and how they really operate.
Thanks for your consideration
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
http://trueslant.com/level/2009/11/29/cl...
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
Who leaked/hacked this is an interesting question by itself. It could illustrate the intrigues and machinations at work between these people.
But it makes no difference whatsoever about the meaning of the leaked materials.
Also Roston says
If a crime did not occur, East Anglia would not involve the British police.
which is downright silly. Someone involving the police doesn't mean that anything illegal happened.
Rolston is trying to shoot the messenger.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Yes it is a very interesting question, for exactly the reasons Roston points out.
The "meaning" of the leaked materials is another discussion.
The one at hand is who did the hack and why?
I expressed my own view on AGW and what I think the US needs to do elsewhere.
If you want to talk biases, consider Benny's bias on the ozone holes and their causes. And that neither the AGW nor the anti-AGW folks talk about them.
From what I've seen on this "the end" doesn't have clue as to the elites really are. And no floppy1, its not HAARP.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
1 May 2004
1 hour 40 min
...about who leaked or who didn't leak this info till the cows come home and then back out again. You still will not have an answer until someone puts their hand up or gets caught or they pick a fall guy.
As for the ozone layer, it is directly linked to our magnetic field. If you look closely you will find corrosponding weaknesses in the magnetic field and the ozone layer. The ionosphere is the most important to us as this is where the +ions are converted to -ions. The ionoshere is also connected to the ozone layer and has direct influence. The planet is a living, breathing system that needs to balance itself to be healthy. We have unbalanced it and it will take action to correct this.
As for HAARP, they are more concerned with the ionosphere but this has a direct re-action to the ozone and the magnetosphere. We also are a part of the solar system that is connected to all bodies in it. To varying degrees each planet effects the others and our sun reacts to subtle changes as well. Comets that sling-shot around the sun create a massive reaction from the sun in the form of great flares.
You can not look at any single cause or effect without first looking at and understanding the greater connection of the whole system.
PS. the eletists only think their in control, they are a couple of runs down the ladder and they don't even know who the puppet masters are.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
As far as the ozone layer goes, EU theories, chemtrails, and the level of political analysis that accompanies that, could you start your own blog on them?
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
1 May 2004
1 hour 40 min
you mentioned me in your post! I was replying to that!
And it is obvious that no one here knows the answer to "who leaked or hacked" the information or why.
Like I said in my last post, you can talk about this for days and come no closer to an answer unless the person responsable reads this thread and reply's.
It wasn't you by any chance???????????
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
As earthling pointed out:
"Who leaked/hacked this is an interesting question by itself. It could illustrate the intrigues and machinations at work between these people."
The point here is not to simply "talk" about the hack, but to exchange information on it.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
10 August 2004
11 hours 33 min
... that what you are asking for would be impossible as no-one seems to have any information. So far none that I know of has come to light, and if anyone did have any surely it would have been revealed by now.
Therefore this is all going to go nowhere at great speed.
Regards, Kathrinn
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
To clear this up, we would need someone to admit to the act, and be believed. It looks like epgrondine suspects Benny or one of his minions. Maybe someone should ask Benny?
If we look at the trail of where the file (it's only one) has been seen, that won't help much. These things spread very quickly.
But we could join the global discussion about whether this person is a hero or a villain.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.
23 October 2006
2 hours 39 min
Hi earthling -
Amazingly enough, hacks can actually be traced. They don't need to admit it. The trail of the files sometimes can be used to do this, but there are other tools.
As far as Benny and his readers goes, I'm one of them. Whether the hack was done by one of them, not by one of them, or by a corporation or nation is the question.
While we have briefly discussed here whether the hack was "good" or "bad", I think that you need to establish motive, and to do that you need to know who did it.
I
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
22 November 2004
4 days 19 hours
If it was a leak, it can't necessarily be traced. Someone makes a copy of a bunch of files, or takes a disk with the files already on them. There doesn't have to be a trace that can be found.
So it is possible that traces can be found, but just as likely that the original traces never existed. The first known appearances can be a good hint, but this isn't really proof. Not in the mathematical sense, and probably not even in any legal sense.
It is also possible that it was neither a leak nor a hack. The file could have been copied by one of the net crawlers. These things take up signigicant parts of the world's bandwidth looking for copyright infringements and pornos.
Someone sifting through the results could have found it and sent it to interested parties.
----
No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.