Does God Exist?

The Teleological Argument from Design states that the universe exhibits a complex, pervasive order or design. Since any time there is such a design there is a designer, it follows that the universe must then have a designer. The name for that designer is “God” or “Allah”, so God exists.

Humans are tinkerers. We take things apart, see how they look, and then put them back together again, often in different orders. For example, we take plants apart. We look at them in smaller and smaller pieces at greater and greater magnitudes. We cut up animals in the same way, then we try to find the tastiest parts. After that, we find uses for the rest of the parts that we didn’t eat. We cut up trees for lumber and paper. Cut through mountains to build roads. We have this natural tendency to take nature apart then we use the parts as we see fit. We mine minerals, rock, and ore, to make tools to help us take nature apart and to use what we take apart more efficiently. As we dismember nature we also study it to see how it works, then we mimic it in ways beneficial to us. Nature gives us seasons, so we make clocks and calendars to chart it. Nature makes complex brains composed of different parts doing different things allowing animals to be intelligent. Humans make computers to do essentially the same thing. We seem to borrow ideas from nature, but it’s not really borrowing since we ourselves are part of nature. Some animals have thick hides that protect them, we make clothing that does the same. As intelligent beings it is natural for us to ask question such as, “What exactly is it that we are copying here?” and “Have these natural things that we mimic been ‘thought up’ by something more intelligent than us?” The analogy that since our human designs require a designer, then natural designs must have a designer too, insists on a very close bond between human kind and nature, a link like a mother to a child. If the very atoms that make up our body come from the Earth itself and were put together into a very complex organism, just like mother and child then it is reasonable to assume that our intelligence mimicks nature too.

A watchmaker is to a watch’s design as nature is to the universe's design. No, nature is not an actual mother pumping out new designs from her womb, and birthing them from some huge vagina, nor is the universe a giant watchmaker in the sky, but the analogy still holds. Nature creates everything, and from the dirt and rock of its womb everything that has shape or design on this planet from it’s atomic level to it’s technological level has come about from natural evolutionary forces here on earth. I’m not saying that there aren’t other planets with intelligences as well, or that earth’s intelligence is the greatest intelligence, it’s just that our human intelligence and design, so far as we know, has come about through seemingly intelligent evolutionary processes happening here on earth. Here is where the problems start. Lots of smart people have given names to this apparent intelligence, Evolution, Mother Nature, Gaia, God, Brahma, etc. Because our social nature which creates relationships combines with our ability to “believe”, we humans create strong emotional ties to some of these names and concepts that we personify, and then we argue about which one is more right.

It absolutely does not follow that since the universe exhibits design that there must only be one God designing it. Monotheism says that there is only one God, but I don’t buy it. If we take the watchmaker analogy a bit further, it would be absurd to believe that the only thing humankind has ever designed was watches. There are shoemakers, and computer parts makers, and drinking straw makers, and building makers, and book makers, and car makers, ad infinitum! It makes sense that nature could have planet makers and, solar system makers, and plant makers, and animal makers, and quasar makers, and nebula makers, and ant makers, and moon makers, and rainbow makers, etc.

Maybe all of those moon makers, and planet makers, and rainbow makers, and animal makers also have a maker or designer. I’ll be honest, I can’t deny that as a possibility, but is there ever a stop to this line of reasoning? Does our universal designer have a designer, and was its designer designed by yet another designer? My point is there is no reason why there can’t be many gods, and I believe the bible (one of monotheisms magnum opus’s) backs me up on this. I choose to discuss an objection that is not grounded in there being something wrong with the teleological argument’s logic, such as its validity or its soundness. I chose an objection that actually agrees with the basic idea that the things we see in nature have been intelligently designed. What I am objecting against is not the argument itself, but the specific Abrahamic religious intent in the wording of the arguments conclusion. My objection is with monotheism specifically, not with intelligent design.

Here’s what I have to say to monotheists. In the King James version of the bible specifically in Exodus chapter 20, verse 3, the first commandment of God to Moses states, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” First of all, I want to make it very clear here that the words do not say, “I am the only God, and there are no other gods.” The words themselves speak of other gods, and that you are not supposed to have any of them before the god of Israel. This rule was given to the people of Israel as part of a covenant between a particular family and this particular god. I’ll grant that the god of Abraham is certainly popular these days, but to be honest, I don’t really want much to do with it. It is our intimate relationship with earth and nature, by watching the patterns and using the parts that we humans have prospered and advanced.

The Teleological Argument from Design supports the idea of fideism rather than actually helping to prove the existence of God. It shows that it is unnecessary to use reason to try to legitimize religious beliefs. The question, “does God exist?” is a Christian/Muslim/Jewish question and can only make sense to someone with some understanding of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish ideas, and the Teleological Argument from Design provides a logical answer. The question itself(does God exist?) infers that there is a God who might or might not exist, and any argument is going start with that basic assumption. The answer is “yes” before it is even asked.

I could rewrite the teleological argument to say this, “The universe exhibits a complex, pervasive order or design. Any time there are such designs there are designers, therefore it follows that the universe must then have designers. The being that designs things here on earth is named Mother Nature. Therefore Mother Nature exists.” We have no rational justification that either God or Mother Nature actually exist yet either, both or neither might. Even with these two versions of the teleological argument, we still either believe or we don’t believe. The use of reason in the teleological argument seems to prove the existence of God, yet it also seems to prove the existence of Mother Nature, or Brahma, or whatever label that you wish to insert in to the question, “does ______ exist?”.

Our reason has this natural tendency to want to validate our beliefs or invalidate conflicting beliefs. So the conclusion of the Teleological Argument by Design doesn’t prove God exists, it merely utilizes natures apparent intelligent designs to validate a belief that he might.

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daydreamer's picture
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Quote:

the Teleological Argument by Design doesn’t prove God exists, it merely utilizes natures apparent intelligent designs to validate a belief that he might

It does this perfectly, but it can be noted that there is no need for it for that purpose. Jesus's face on toast will do the same thing. I find it funny as it is a halfway house between the complexities in science and those in religion and faith. It really goes no further than a face on toast as it isnt actually concerned with whether nature is designed. It assumes this based only on the assumption that it is - based only on opinion, not investigation. If something looks designed, then it is. Full stop. There is no need to pretend that it steps outside of faith.

Perhaps the laws of physics were designed. Deism has always seemed more compatible to me. Start a universe off, set-up spacetime to allow for the right conditions, allow for the correct nucleosynthesis and sit back and wait, hay presto - there's the Earth and people nearly 14 billion years later. Just enough time for an infinite cup of tea, well, if you have infinte power anyway.

dustincole's picture
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It's a little ironic really. Fideism seems to be the truth in matters of faith, God, Goddess, Science, whatever your preferred pantheon...faith and reason are independent of one another. Robert Anton Wilson must have known this when he showed that we each have a Thinker and a Prover and that whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves. At first it seems like an oversimplification, but that's the genius of it. It's right on. At their core of fanaticism, there is no difference between the harcore skeptic and an evangelical christian. They simply both KNOW that they're right...and to follow one marvelous irony with another, "There is no God and I am his Prophet" (as Alan Watts puts it!) is even more beautiful...arguably...

daydreamer's picture
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In a real sense we are never discussing 'God', we are discussing the linguistic and imaginative constructs that we have created. In this realm we are able to apply 'reason' to 'faith' as ultimately the faith constructs are human constructs. Just like we can apply 'reason' to maths or biology or philosophy.

These are really just thought processes. It is silly to get caught up in sentences like 'God does not exist' when the sentence 'God does exist' is so undefined in itself.

Leave the 'God' undefined and it is everyones and anyones God. Start to define it and the same imaginative processes used in the definition become malleable to the same processes used to test imaginative input in the sciences and in philosophy.

As for the prover proving whatever the thinker thinks this is so obviously over-simplified that it seems too simple to say so. The vast majority of ideas about the world have been proven incorrect, but neither by the thinker or the prover, but by unexpected evidence. Both the thinker and the prover are educated by external experience, both through the senses, but also through experiences of other means. This is just one way in which neither the thinker or the prover matters. It is a genius of a metaphor, but as ever it can be over extended at which point it is not only over-simple, but just wrong.

dustincole's picture
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Regardless of all our experiences both internal and external, we all have a thinker and a prover. Our thinker creates ideas to give order(or the semblance of) to these experiences we have with the chaos of nature and environment. Our prover sets out to demonstrate reasons and to provide explanations for what the thinker thinks.

It does not work in reverse. The prover never denies the thinker, it only validates. The prover proves for the thinker.

The thinker can change its mind or have a change of heart if it wants to, the prover will just continue proving for the thinker’s change of mind or heart.

I think that many gods exists so my prover goes about proving there are many gods. Or, I think that there is no such thing as God, so my prover goes about proving there is no God. Or, I think that God does exist and I also think that God does not exist, so my prover goes about quoting Erwin Schrödinger.

Philosophic argument about the existence of God is the rubric of the prover. It's simple and genius.

fnord

earthling's picture
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I would dispute the following part:

Quote:

It does not work in reverse. The prover never denies the thinker, it only validates. The prover proves for the thinker.

Many minds operate with an internal devil's advocate. The thinker comes up with an idea, and the devil's advocate tries to disprove it. That is the advocate's purpose, to deny the thinker. It is a necessary feature to the critical mind.

----
We are the cat.

daydreamer's picture
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Earthling,

I was just going to say exactly the same thing, until i read your post.

In the sense that the prover is locked into itself then yes, it only proves. It would be interesting to scour the records for anyone having suffered brain damage and being left only with a prover, as it is likely that some part of the brain is responsible for it.

I have long wondered about the positive affirmation of belief in the same way. The sensation of belief seems wholey positive; even in the act of disbelief positive affirmation of 'another stance' is occurring. I do find myself wondering if the brain has any facility for other types of belief of this nature, or whether we are setup for positive affirmation only.

Anyway, i think you are right. The 'thinker' (no doubt a huge simplification for very complex inter-related parts of the brain) does do the thinking, and the prover does do the proving. This falls apart though after thinking about the different actions of the prover and the different modes of input and output involved in the role of proving. It doubly falls apart once we think about the role of the disprover in the argument. This is only in the role of the individual mind as well. The larger system operates using peer review whereby your own thoughts hardly matter. Others will do their best to disprove you, and it is their work that is even more important than your own. As such the cultural information available is of a different status than that espoused by individuals, which is why we don't really care when one scientist stands up and claims something, but wait until he has convinced others of his specialty.

But expressed simply the idea of the prover and the thinker does seem profound, though no doubt there would be a lot of arrogance in judging who was purely led by their prover. Fortunately life is more complex than the metaphor, else we would all be in big trouble.

I guess i'd also caution that this can either be used as a call to responsible skepticism of our own limited abilities when working on our own, or more poorly as a general nihilistic view of human ability or even worse a specific ad hominem put down whereby there is no need to learn reasons for other views.

thefloppy1's picture
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after reading your comment daydreamer, I thought you may be interested in this guy.....Phineas P Gage.....just google or whatever his name there. Too many good links to embed.

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

SpeakerofTruth's picture
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Well, being a pantheist, I view everything as being a "part of God." Now, when one examines the universe, it becomes apparent that we are in some "body" or system within a body.

As far as believing the Deistic view that God created everything and just let it "run its course," no, I don't believe in God in that manner.

I think. Therefore, I am dangerous.

Survey Magnet's picture
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We have an interesting debate going on our blog at the following link:

http://www.surveymagnet.com/2010/07/does...

Come join the fun!

Inannawhimsey's picture
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dustincole,

good riff, m'man, good riff.

---------
All that lives is holy, life delights in life.

--William Blake

kamarling's picture
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I have mentioned my personal concept of God in other posts here but, to reiterate: there is nothing that is not God.

It seems to me that we are conditioned by religion (western religious traditions, at least) to believe we are somehow separate from God. If we thought in terms of "I am God", perhaps we would have less disagreement and fewer philosophical labels to deal with.

To me it all comes back to consciousness. Consciousness creates to know itself. The natural and the supernatural are just artificial labels. Matter is just a construct of mind. Humans, our world and our universe are in no way separate from God or each other.

I could go on (and on) but, to quote a lovely TED talk I watched recently, I can hear the eyes rolling at the back there.

Dave.

Wanted: More White Crows ... http://whitecrows.davidsmuse.co.uk

thefloppy1's picture
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most of the ancient teachings relay your message.....even Jesus tried to relay this very message....our consciousness is expanding and so is the universe. We are all creating at the same time....We are in the creation and the creation is in us...the idea of separate entities is only a tool used by a very few who know the reality of "mind, body, soul." This is used to vail the truth and understanding which in turn dis-empowers us to our true nature. Their purpose is power fueled by greed and controlled by ego.

There is no god as a separate entity and no creation without the creators...our physical apparatus is only to allow our true nature to create in this physical reality. It's but a nano fraction of our true nature that resides where time and space is non-existent. Without such creations as this reality, then any form of energy existence would be meaningless. The sole purpose of it all is to raise up the vibrational levels to the highest which is joy and love. This higher vibrational state is the ever expansion of all realities.

We need the trials and contrast that the physical reality offers to expand consciously. We come into our physical apparatus blindfolded and not remembering our true state of being. If we knew then we could not expand. As we travel through our life here, we slowly remember. Some choose to believe in the memories and others choose not to. Others even try to trick and fool us for their own agenda. Whatever the reason, whether percieved as good or evil, the contrast helps the creation.

It all begins with a thought. The emotional intent behind the thought gives it the power of creating. That one thought you have when you wake up will be the foundation of your creation for that day and everyone you come into contact with. You choose at this point whether to raise the vibrational state of creation to joy and love or lower the state to dis-harmony.

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

Johannes Angelos's picture
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If this universe was a metaphysical construct before it came into being, and it was designed by someone/thing/it then...

...oh boy, are we in trouble.

--Cuisvis hominis est errare; nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare

kamarling's picture
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Johannes Angelos wrote:

If this universe was a metaphysical construct before it came into being, and it was designed by someone/thing/it then...

...oh boy, are we in trouble.

You call it trouble, thefloppy1 calls it contrast. The point is that this "trouble" is part of the creative process, just as conflict in a novel is essential to make a good story. It isn't the work of the devil, it is consciousness playing out dramas.

There isn't a pre-existing designer ... that is the separateness I was talking of in the earlier post. There is continuous creation: constantly learning, constantly expanding/evolving.

IMHO

Dave.

Wanted: More White Crows ... http://whitecrows.davidsmuse.co.uk

thefloppy1's picture
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programmed constraints of the mind (thought patterns) are control tools........

never mind...what was, is, and will be has always been......the contrast (trouble) is entirely up to the choice of the individual. We create, co-create according to the thought input....no one can ever be seperate from this process.....the amount of disharmony is directly related to the amount of negative thought input......the power for a good world has always been ours.....some just don't get it!

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

Elgon's picture
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This poem by Rainer Maria Rilke often comes to mind when the concept of God is discussed:

You are the future,
the red sky before sunrise
over the fields of time.

You are the cock's crow when night is done,
you are the dew and the bells of matins,
maiden, stranger, mother, death.

You create yourself in ever-changing shapes
that rise from the stuff of our days---
unsung, unmourned, undescribed,
like a forest we never knew.

You are the deep innerness of all things,
the last word that can never be spoken.
To each of us you reveal yourself differently:
to the ship as coastline, to the shore as a ship.

---
The flap of a butterfly's wings in the Atlantic may cause it to fly.

cnnek's picture
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thefloppy1 wrote:

the power for a good world has always been ours.....some just don't get it!

Floppy,

I think that it would be slightly more accurate to say that most people really don't want to get it!

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Critically Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think Critically!!!}

thefloppy1's picture
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you are correct....most don't want to get it......fear of missing out on their luxury.....

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

subliminalcriminal's picture
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Follow the source of infinite creation, and it will lead you to the answer.

Which is found, of course, in Alan Moore's beard.

jr

Enigmni Freak's picture
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Timelessness is the reality of this existence with Time being the dream or illusion. Eternity is the All, encompassing essence of the Totality (One with no second). It is the generative order or implicate unity. Mentality is multi-purposed, multifaceted, and multidimensional. In thought finality, Mind is the Totality. Mind rides the Light but is not reliant upon it. Light is capable of creating the universe in illusion as a virtual reality, what some call the moiré arena. God is Mind...and Mind issues forth in God’s motion — The Enigmni. Mind moves from nothing to everything and back. Mind is the experience of existence where all creativity is found in a catalytic state of reinvention. It is a constancy of change. There is nothing faster than Mind, then comes Light. Because Mind is present with Light they appear as One...they are two, but light is the expression of the Mind — the broadcast. One is God the other is His Means — the Holy Spirit...the mover — Enigmni.

The First Logos or Creation is the Son; the Word catalyzes ideas into existence in sequence. The Word is REASON. Mind is first cause with no last. Last is an illusion of Time, which moves as a linear aspect generated in Timelessness. Linearity can be accompanied by dimensionality. Increased dimensionality adds complexity and solidity to Time for those who ride the Light. The more complex, and the more coherent, the hotter is the form. Mind is not affected by any of its creations, but its creations are affected by each preceding creation that manifests in directed evolutional sequence. Feedback created naturally by Mind and Light is essential to coherent knowing of each preparatory creation. Congruence, Empathy, or Love and Knowing is amplified by each structural dimension created. 1•3•7 is the number of Creation.

Beings or Mind segments that are attracted by each amplifying and complex structural level will localize in sequential fashion. From the smallest atomic structure to the most complex. Thus is the spiral of creation. Mind is uniformly everywhere, everything, and Eternal. Mind is the atmosphere of be-ness. Humanity is represented by a multitude of structural levels animated by total mentality. Light creates the illusion of body and its programs of DNA supply the variety. Mind selects the product based on cause and consequence. Mind is God. Man is a part of God. God is the Whole.

Mind may seek itself in exponential feedback waves that are everywhere at once yet holographically focused by a reflection mechanism on the physical side called a Brain (gestalt / sequential computerized device). Such a virtual organ can and does make localizations think they are individuals capable of god-like creation. It is an illusion that must be learned due to sequential limitations. We are one. Individuals created in localizations use brains as a secondary focusing agent to create a holographic virtual domain wherein personality rises. Personalities create dimensional illusions that flux and must be reinforced by recognition or observation from others. These brains coalesce mind into a sense field capable of creating solid reality. This virtual reality is hard copy to a conscious mind aided by a lens of being. The lens collects data for evaluation by the All.

The generative order is symbolized by a being (person) seated in outline form. It is fractalian in nature and existence is created within the relation to a mathematical (geometric) interface inherent with this symbol. Inside the symbol is the void-potential, outside is the creation. Where the two meet is the implicate order or cursor of God’s Eye. The leading edge is where Time is on the FLY. Timelessness feeds the potential that smears out over created space awaiting localization of monadic mind.

This smear of potential is as the multifaceted or holographic plate (information float), all potential is inherent within its confines as feedback looping is progressing faster than the speed of Light. It is Mind. This combination allows Light to seem to have "Prior Knowledge," to a singular localization.

subliminalcriminal's picture
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EF, you had some freakin' epic posts today.

I hope that all of these just sorta fell out of your head, rather than copy and pasting them...

jr

Enigmni Freak's picture
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I have tons of material that I have generated over the eons and I utilize that mentality to augment my posts. Most of it is mine and if not, credit is given those who amplify what I am conversing. I know whereof I speak.

subliminalcriminal's picture
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Definitely did not mean to imply plagarism, rather what you confirmed; that you had composed them beforehand. I was just hopin that you sat down, opened your head, and that is exactly what fell out, improv-style.

jr

Enigmni Freak's picture
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subliminalcriminal wrote:

Definitely did not mean to imply plagiarism, rather what you confirmed; that you had composed them beforehand. I was just hopin that you sat down, opened your head, and that is exactly what fell out, improv-style.

Indeed, much of what I do just falls out exactly as you state. I have spoken to large audiences of university students and academicians and large business assemblages without much preparation. It just falls out and I really do not know from whence it came. I don't think it is special but some folks, especially my closest students seem to think I am their mentor. I love these folks and think they are just being nice. But, I had tremendous teachers in my life that just blew me away with their knowledge and wisdom. I just use their methods and their words over again. They were so great. I hung on their every word.

Enigmni Freak's picture
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http://www.redicecreations.com/specialre...