So where's all the aliens?
Posted by daydreamer at 20:34, 07 Apr 2010There's plenty of content here addressing the subject of alien visitations. We've got government cover-ups, conspiracy, collapse of ancient civilisations, cut off's 12,000 years ago between alien influenced civilisations and poor old us, and attempts at understanding bizarre accounts of various alien activity (etc).
I'm feeling a little on the outside though as references are made to events that are obvious to others but difficult if you are not familiar with the history or stories.
What can people say to people that are not well versed in the history. Why is it obvious that China is covering up cataclysm 12,000 years ago? Why is it obvious that ancient civilisations had common alien origins? What technology shows up that is alien in history?
What would people say to someone uninitiated in all of this that goes beyond personal opinion and comment on the subject?
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12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Hi daydreamer,
That is an excellent question. The first thing that comes to mind, is how uninitiated one can really be in this day and age? I'm sure that my little nephews have already come across some ancient astronaut theories —aliens built the pyramids or whatever— from watching some Scooby Doo episode on Cartoon Network! Even if they are ridiculed, fringe ideas do manage to influence society, in a very complex cross-pollination kind of way.
So I guess the first thing one has to come to acknowledge, is that no one starts this 'journey' of discovery 100% unbiased. Hell, to do that, you'd have to be a damn space alien yourself! :)
I'll come up with more later, but I'd like to check out the input others might like to include first.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
An interesting thing you say:
Even if they are ridiculed, fringe ideas do manage to influence society, in a very complex cross-pollination kind of way.
And since this is already post #2 in the thread, I can start a tangential line.
Many ideas influence society even though they are ridiculous. In a very simple and direct way. If a ridiculous fringe idea is repeated often enough, it becomes established orthodoxy.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
That's a possibility. Then again, there has to be some powerful driving force behind the constant repetition. Either the gray alien meme is now a ubiquitous cultural manifestation because it's a compelling way to dress (or address) the 'other', or some folks for some uncertain reason keep seeing these kind of entities.
You'd think that if it is nothing but a fad that people would stop reporting saucer-like objects flying in the sky. And yet we keep getting those reports. So, what's behind it?
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
Actually I had in mind ideas like communism, national socialism, and similar really popular ideas. There even is popular belief that the Toronto Maple Leafs are a good ice hockey team, in spite of decades of evidence to the contrary. Simple repetition works, ask any honest marketing person.
The point is that after sufficient repetition, some serious percentage of the population is going to believe it. This seems independent of whether the idea has merit or not.
I find it interesting that beings from out of this world have been seen at all ages of humanity. In different ages, they used different vehicles (or so the reports seem to say).
Assuming that the reports of the reports are genuine, i.e. that the first hand reports actually happened, the current reporting of saucer-like objects is over a fairly short time frame.
Another interesting aspect are the fairly frequent hoaxes. Not that they discredit the more serious reports, they don't. However they do show that the hoaxers assume that people will believe them, at least for a while, and the hoaxers are right. There is a fairly wide spread readiness to believe these sightings.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
I agree with you in all the points you make. Well, almost all.
Like you guys know, I'm a designer. In my line of work, one of the most stressful parts of the creative process is the communication exchange between the client and the designer. The client may have a somewhat vague idea of what he wants or needs, and he will try to convey it to you in terms that are intelligible... to him. Likewise you may have a pretty good idea of what the solution should be, but then you ave two choices: either spending many minutes or hours on the phone or a meeting trying to explain what you have in mind, or work on a computer rendering or a sketch.
And, you'd be surprised to find out how many people are INCAPABLE of making sense of an isometric or perspective drawing! Often times you deliver the drawings, maybe even a computer rendering or two, and after the project is completed the client may come and complain that THIS is not what he thought the end result would be. People do not process sensory input in a cookie-cut process.
So, there's room to assume that the things that have been seen in the sky have either been misinterpreted by the witnesses according to their cultural baggage, or WE are misinterpreting the accounts given by them due to the cultural divide between them and us.
Who the hell really knows what Ezechiel saw?
Re. the readiness to believe in such things, one would be foolish to dismiss it. It taps a very fundamental core in our psyche. Maybe there's a good reason for that need, other than using it as an escapade from the dread of the daily routine.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
7 March 2009
24 weeks 6 days
The best book I've read on UFOs is Richard M. Dolan's _UFOs and the National Security State_. As an Oxford-educated historian, his analysis of the subject brings a crucial awareness of the socio-political zeitgeist of the era (end of WWII & beginning of the Cold War). That's the historical context in which UFO phenomena developed...
Dolan explains how humanity's social structure would be altered by the awareness of alien visitation, and that the top few percentile of humans (in terms of wealth & power) do not want society's power-structure altered; it's set up to benefit a tiny class of people, so of course The Powers that Be are threatened by the way in which the alien presence might alter/destabilize human society.
Humans would look up to the aliens, and want answers & direction from THEM, and not from our human leaders. Religions would be threatened, etc.
The whole UFO issue came to the attention of the Army & government as the Cold War was just beginning, so secrecy & paranoia were growing, and at the time U.S. leaders weren't sure if they were Soviet craft or WHAT. Pretty quickly, though, they realized it couldn't be human technology, but they didn't know what was going to happen or what was going on, so for all these reasons, it has remained a huge secret.
I tend to stay pretty conservative when it comes to the more outlandish aspects of UFOlogy (such as crash retrievals, abductions, cattle mutilations, crop circles, etc.). But there are enough strong, core cases demonstrating that the "flying discs" are "real and not visionary or fictitious" (to quote a 1947 memo written by General Nathan Twining)--
"Twelve Government Documents That Take UFOs Seriously":
http://keyholepublishing.com/Leading-UFO...
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
The UFOs as modern beings from out of this world are generally assumed to be space faring folk, who have technology at their disposal that is far beyond what we know. That's how they got here.
In that scenario, it seems that they don't have to listen to what our current governing crowd wants, they could do whatever they please.
One of the questions aligned with daydreamer's start of this thread is - why don't they? The Russians or the US or the catholic church couldn't stop them. Those organizations can't stop amateur drug smugglers with used power boats, never mind space faring aliens.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Those are valid questions.
Theoretically, yes. Then again, we're assuming they would be tempted to act on impunity against weaker individuals, because that's what WE would do. Maybe they behave themselves under different standards, but that's falling on the same trap than the original premise you proposed.
Maybe there's an even bigger authority they have to respond to. After all, visitors to a zoo have to follow the rules and refrain from feeding the animals, though there always are hooligans willing to take their chances ;)
But, if you talk to abductees about this, they would be quick to point out that the aliens DO act with total impunity, as far as they are concerned. According to them, the aliens kidnap common citizens out of their own bedrooms and nothing can prevent it. It would be like orangutans trying to find a way from preventing conservationists from drugging them with tranquilizers and taking them to shelters; and of course, the orangutans wouldn't have any way of knowing this is done for their own good.
In the end this is all guessing. And that is one of the things we should keep in mind about it. That WE ARE ALL GUESSING. And that IMO extends to government agencies as well. Just as The End pointed out, one of the reasons there is a policy towards ridiculing the phenomenon,might be because governments don't want to acknowledge they are too dumbfounded by UFOs.
Sure they have superior technology(*). They have dared to fly over nuclear missile silos, sometimes incapacitating the launch capabilities of those facilities. They keep invading restricted airspace again and again, and there seems to be no way to stop them from doing that. You yourself pointed out that the US government is (apparently) incapable of stopping drug cartels from smuggling drugs to their territory; have they ever openly acknowledged this?
(*)Here I need to address the UFO as a technology of some sort, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are nuts-and-bolts aircrafts IMO. Shamanic rituals are a technology too, just of a different kind.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
Of course there is the view that the US government is indeed hiding secrets in a lot of these UFO affairs. It's just, according to this very reasonable view, that these secrets have nothing to do with UFOs. The noise has been a very convenient way of distracting people from the real secrets.
For a short time, these things do work. Consider the interesting voyage of the Glomar Explorer.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Again, there is truth in seeing the US government taking advantage of the UFO myth, for things that have nothing to do with UFOs.
The CIA and the FBI monitored contactees and UFOlogists because they feared that the message spread by the Space Brothers in the 1950s was too close to communism for their comfort. With the UFOlogists, there was the concern (and with good reasons) that they could be used by foreign factions in order to learn about classified military projects.
Likewise the UFO has been used to perform psychological studies in crowd behavior. Such is the case of the UMMO letters that were received by certain individuals in Europe several decades ago.
People think of the word UFO and they usually assume it can only mean little green men from Mars. To me the UFO phenomenon is a very convoluted mix, with a small percentage that genuinely seems to indicate a non-human origin.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
18 September 2007
4 hours 1 min
Has no one been listening to all the military personnel coming forward with reports of UFO's disarming nuclear weapons and nuclear silo control facilities? It's not like UFO reports are invariably vague and fuzzy with dubious witnesses and a dream like quality.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Please read comment #8, emlong.
Yeah, those military testimonies are very interesting. But again the skeptics will quickly remind us that Air Force pilots and radar operators are just hopeless morons with a very deficient & unreliable wetware processing unit just like the rest of us ;)
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
Well, they are just as fallible as the rest of us. Although uniforms do have the effect of making the wearer more convincing to many people.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Well, I presume they are just as fallible as the rest of us, when it comes to daily stuff like checking your mail or doing the laundry. But I would also assume a pilot or radar operator, because of their training and experience, are more knowledgeable than the average Joe when it comes to judging whether an aerial phenomenon is anomalous or not; and that simply because they spend more time than us looking at the sky.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
On radar, you can't see much about an object. Location and speed usually. Radar shows you all kinds of things other than airplanes, like weather, birds, flocks of birds, lightning, many entertaining things.
Visibility for pilots is very problematic. Without reference points it is very hard to judge distances and speeds. It is even very hard to tell up from down, that's why trained pilots fly into the ground quite regularly.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
You're reaching a bit, my friend ;)
Location and speed radar data can be sufficient to determine that a certain target is moving in a way non-concordant with known aircraft, flocks of birds, or atmospheric phenomena. it has be sufficient in the past to trigger the scrambling of fighter jets in order to intercept the UFO —see Paul Kimball's 'Best Evidence' docu, which includes the case of an Iranian fighter pilot who was sent to pursue a UFO flying over Tehran.
Distances and speeds might be problematic to judge by the human eye on board an airplane. But is it equally problematic to tell the difference between known aircrafts, and objects that don't follow common aerodynamic engineering, who sometimes appear to be solid enough to reflect environmental light —i.e. they seem to be metallic— of that they maneuver with seemingly complete disregard of the laws of aerodynamics —staying static followed by incredible acceleration?
All I'm saying is that those cases are compelling evidence; not irrefutable proof, mind you.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
I have been on the ocean a few times trying to navigate, and I have been a passenger in airplanes plenty of times.
No it is not easy to just the distance and speed of another vessel, even for professionals.
Because the distance is very hard to just, it is also very hard to judge what are realistic manuevers and what aren't. A bright reflection doesn't indicate metal. Glass or water reflects just as nicely.
Of course there are individual cases that warrant close examination. I am just tired of people with blurry photographs trying to pass those off as significant. And I'm tired of blurry photographs making headlines. Those 95% give the rest a bad name.
Also I find it interesting that many people conclude that all scientists, engineers, governments, are all incompetent fools, and then use the argument of competent authority when there is a 3rd hand report of a trained person in uniform seeing something suspicious. Make up your minds, people.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
Not all scientists are afraid of addressing the UFO. There's Hynek, Vallee, Kaku, etc.
I understand your argument, though.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
In case it isn't obvious, I don't have anything against aliens showing up. I wish they would talk to us in a reasonable and straightforward way. I have many questions about the universe that won't be answered in my lifetime by our current rate of progress down here.
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We are the cat.
7 March 2009
24 weeks 6 days
As far as any limitations on the part of the "aliens" that UFOs represent, well, who knows. But they probably know quite well that an unexpected mass revelation to humanity COULD cause our whole society to crumble. They probably study Earth in a scientific manner, and might not want (or be allowed) to endanger The Big Show in that manner.
A slow, gradual, incremental revelation would be more likely, and it seems that they often PRESENT THEMSELVES in intentional displays, then evade followers, or simply disappear, at will. I think they are sending the message that humanity has to start acclimating itself to the idea of the Existence of Others. That might just be how the Universe works, different civilizations interacting. Who knows.
But the point is, when people ask, "Why don't they communicate with us?", I think they're missing the point----I think the point is, revealing themselves IS their form of communication! They are saying, "CHECK IT OUT---WE EXIST, WE'RE HERE!" They do it in small doses; in a way, innoculating human society. Small, gradual doses are safer than a sudden, unexpected SHOCKING BIG ONE. So they reveal themselves, but our leaders keep it a secret. Maybe they are constrained to respect the wishes of our "leaders", because opposing them would be considered warlike or traumatic.
And yeah, I think the government probably WANTS everyone to think they know more than they actually do. Knowledge is power, and so is the appearance of knowledge. For instance, I've often wondered if Roswell was indeed a sham, but one pulled by the U.S. military. Plant the story of a retrieved flying saucer, then deny it...
Maybe that's how they wanted to neutralize the psychological tension generated by this disturbing, mysterious Presence----some people won't believe in aliens at all, so that's no problem, but then the citizens who DO believe in an alien presence will think "Our Leaders Know What's Going On!" as some sort of psychological reassurance against the terror of the unknown. Maybe they thought it would preserve their authority over humans, so that we'd think, "Well, the government know what's going on with the aliens, and I don't, so maybe they have good reasons for doing x,y & z, and I should just trust them...."
12 April 2007
4 min 8 sec
I agree that there's already some sort of communication going on; it's just not the kind we were expecting due to our Sci-Fi expectations —the alien ambassador addressing the UN council or whatever.
Like you pointed out, the communication seems highly theatrical, and symbolical; almost like it is forcing us to evolve in an unconscious way.
Also ditto on the last points re. pretending to know more than you do in order to keep things under control.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
11 weeks 4 days
I don't know where you got the "cut off's 12,000 years ago" from. If you want to read the bible with a pure alien intent in mind you would find it a compelling story of visitation and alien manipulation. The Exodus story is a very good example in the time of Moses ca. 1600bc.
What we are involved in here at this time is the beginnings of the spiritual revolution. This overlaps the information revolution by a few years. In the last 400 years approx. we have had, starting with the renaissance, the industrial revolution which brought about the machine revolution followed by the technology revolution closely lapped by the information revolution. Each revolution has become shorter in time.
Technology has allowed us to find and understand the past and this time better then any other time in history. There are many anomilies that prove ancient visitation and civilisations but are kept from general puplic as it defies our understanding of where we are from. There are dogmas and ego's at play here. A very comfortable existance has emerged for a few and they don't want to let that go.
A spiritual revolution wil desolve the eliet and bring about a complete change to society. This will not happen over night as all other revolutions haven't.
Each person needs to find their own understandings of all this strangness. But like any truth that people are reluctent to believe, there is always a period of denial followed by anger and then, finally, acceptance.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
1 May 2004
3 hours 20 min
So much speculation, but very little acknowledgement of possible alien restrictions. The spacefarers are almost invariably recognized as invincible, machiavellian, or even pure and god-like.
Let's look at the primitive jungle tribe comparison. Our civilization has vast material and technical advantages over theirs. However, our vanguard in the remotest jungle is usually a handful of curious explorers with only what they can carry on their backs. Some of these explorers have ended up dead or even dinner at the hands of the natives.
Now imagine a small spacecraft a very long way from home. Energy is precious, especially the amount you would need to engage Earth's militaries. Try to slug it out and maybe you can't make it all the way home. Land and you risk chemical or biological contamination plus hostile earthlings, 6 billion of them. What are you really here for? Supplies, information, samples? Is it worth getting involved?
What would an advanced technical alien civilization need from Earth? Would they have need of conquest at all? Space is a big place, maybe big enough for everybody. We just get the eccentric tourists and scientists. To use sci-fi for an analogy, perhaps we're more likely to meet Doctor Who than a Klingon battle fleet.
18 September 2007
4 hours 1 min
I am interjecting this little Youtube just to remind the discussion that there are classes of UFO interactions which are particularly compelling. People manning nuclear missile facilities are chosen for their mental stability and are trained "observers" and not as likely as the general population to be "carried away" by just any unusual aerial phenomena. That coupled with the very specific mechanical malfuntions reported at some of the most failsafe facilites in the country makes these reports very special and compelling. I don't have any big money on the the reality of alien/human interactions. I'm just promoting a certain class of sighting/interaction that is far from fuzzy and vague which does indeed characterize most of the other types of sightings and reports.
22 November 2004
5 weeks 17 hours
The video doesn't play here, I have to go to the other site and watch the right advertisements?
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We are the cat.
18 September 2007
4 hours 1 min
The title of the Youtube video is "UFOs Over Nuclear Missile Installations."
However, there is sometimesa trick to these video embedments. If you click on the "Play" arrow in the toolbar of the video you get the message that the video won't play here, but if you click on the black screen of the video it will play. I assume that TDG is ware of this anomaly.