Giving dowsing a bad name?
Posted by Perceval at 18:29, 22 Jan 2010Now that the sick 'inventor' of the 'ADE651 Bomb Detector' has been arrested for fraud, and the export of the detectors (to Iraq and Afghanistan only) banned (not before the Iraqi Government spent $85 million/£52.7 million on them, and hundreds of people have been killed by undetected bombs) and his website taken down, the media are using the term 'dowsing rod' in this context with abandon, but is it justified?
Well, it seems the 'inventor' did use the term himself.
In November, Mr McCormick, a former Merseyside police officer, told The Times that his devices, which consist of little more than a telescopic antenna on a molded plastic handle, are able to detect explosives in the same way as a dowsing rod finds water.
I suspect that sceptics will be keen to exploit the association between the claims made for this device, and dowsing in general.
What explanatory mechanism do dowsers use? Does the fact that the 'electronics' in the 'bomb detector cards' is a simple retail security tag mean this was 'fraudulent dowsing', genuine dowsing, plain and simple fraud, or a case of 'woo', as the sceptics would have it?
What do you think?
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Comments
12 April 2007
15 min 16 sec
What a sleazeball, that guy!
I'm not too knowledgeable on dowsing, but I suspect dowsers would claim that the rods they use are only a tool to amplify/channel their natural abilities? Kathrinn I think practices dowsing, so I'm sure she can enlighten us on this further.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
25 November 2004
9 hours 4 min
I imagine the response of the dowsing community will likely be largely non-committal regarding this specific device.
Instead they might focus on the training of the dowser, stating that the use of any dowsing technique/device by inexperienced users is not reliable, and also highly irresponsible in a life and death situation, let alone the promotion and sale of a technique/device for use in such circumstances.
I don't believe in belief!
Perceval
@grailseeker
22 November 2004
5 weeks 16 hours
Perhaps the 'inventor' really believed it was working. Then it wouldn't be fraud.
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We are the cat.
25 November 2004
9 hours 4 min
Perhaps he does, but that won't help his legal case!
I don't believe in belief!
Perceval
@grailseeker
10 August 2004
4 days 7 hours
I wouldn't even dignify this rubbish with a reply!
I know I can dowse for water, depth, flow etc., also find underground electric wires (provided the wire is active). I can also find north, with or without a dowsing rod. I don't have to prove anything to anyone except myself! And I've proved it time and again.
As for dowsing for bombs - I can't say - haven't tried it (we don't have many in Oz!). Maybe the guy has the ability and maybe he hasn't - maybe he has the ability but not everyone else does. Hard to say. Sounds a rather unsafe way of going about it, though.
Regards, Kathrinn
12 April 2007
15 min 16 sec
I hope I didn't offend you with that last comment. As I stated, I'm not knowledgeable in dowsing, but even I know that its an ability no one has —or claim to have; just trying to keep a healthy skepticism, as always— so selling a dowsing bomb-detecting device that anyone could use should have been seen as a clear red herring.
The thing that should also be pursued is: who in the hell authorized the purchase of those things, on behalf of the Iraqi government??
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
11 weeks 4 days
RPJ wrote,"As I stated, I'm not knowledgeable in dowsing, but even I know that its an ability no one has —or claim to have; just trying to keep a healthy skepticism." UMMM, you can't call that healthy, as you said you have little if no knowledge on this subject. So to state that no one has this ability is somewhat presumptious.
I personally have watched water dowsing on many occasions and it is dead accurate. There is a local bloke here on the Darling Downs that can tell depth and even the amount of water expected from the bore. He has not missed any yet over 30 years. I have my own theory on how this works but that is not relevent. The fact is it works.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
22 November 2004
5 weeks 16 hours
It works if done by honest and capable water dowsers. If don't by dishonest people, or by inept dowsers, it doesn't work.
The public perception is that most people who sell their water dowsing services are both dishonest and inept. This is probably because most of them are.
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We are the cat.
12 April 2007
15 min 16 sec
Yes, and therefore I cannot say that a person can or can't perform those feats. And also, that even if dowsing really works —and, like other psychic abilities, that it may work intermitently, and not 'on command'— I cannot preclude the possibility that a person MAY claim to have downsing abilities, when in fact it may not.
Or do you doubt the possibility that some of the so-called psychics that offer their services in TV or magazine ads, may actually be nothing but charlatans?
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
11 weeks 4 days
you said no one has this abilty, or was that a typo???
The artical is about dowsing for explosive chemical componds or the encasing in which it is in or both. Water dowsing is done by good people and it works. Frauds do not last very long at all. Word of mouth sees to that. A bore costs many thousands of dollars. If you miss 2 or 3 in a row you will never have a job again.
I don't doubt psychic ability from personal experience but I do doubt many of the claims of these people who make a living out of it in tabloids.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
12 April 2007
15 min 16 sec
You know, I think that was a FUBAR from my part. When I wrote:
I see now that I left that sentence incomplete. I know it's a cliché, but what I ,meant to write is that: Even i know that dowsing is not an ability given solely by holding a rod or whatever deviced, but that it's an ability (or claimed ability, when trying to explain my right for skepticims I lost my train of thought) of the dowser, that's is somewhat enhanced by holding some object. Like the rod.
So, to clarify my position: I'm uncertain about dowsing per se. There's a case that some people have dowsing abilities; those people don't receive their abilities from the rods; and there are charlatans who claim to be authentic dowsers.
Now I have to extend my apologies to you, and also my thanks, because I honeslty was not aware of the mistake of my incomplete sentece I wrote this morning (a mistake I will leave unedited, so people can make sense of this thread).
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
1 May 2004
11 weeks 4 days
I accept your apology RPJ as I know you are generally of a balanced perspective on these matters. We do have to be skeptical of everything these days but to rule anything out on pure self understanding is narrow at best. I have my strong views on certain subjects but this is because of my personal experience in these matters.
"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.
10 August 2004
4 days 7 hours
Red - I wasn't offended. Sorry if my comment gave that impression. When I said I wouldn't dignify things with a reply, I wasn't referring to you, but to those in general who dismiss dowsing out-of-hand as mumbo-jumbo.
Also, I would point out here that I do not consider dowsing a psychic ability - it's just an ability, and possessed by more people than you or they realise. I don't know the mechanisms of how it works, it just does. I don't know if the dowsing rods amplify some ability possessed by the dowser, and doubt that they do.'
As I see it, what they do is bring focus to a question - in the case of water divining that would be "is there water here?". By manipulation of the rod in various ways having answered that question in the positive, one can then elicit further information as to depth of water, flow (amount) of water and whether it is potable or brackish.
Obviously my ability to find north without a dowsing rod but just by using my hand is somehow linked to a magnetic link between the north pole and something in my body. Again it is not a psychic ability, simply an ability. I have shown many people that they are able to do it also, they just didn't know before because they hadn't tried and were not aware that it was a possibility.
Try it yourself - hold your right hand out at arm's length and revolve slowly - the palm should 'prickle' when it reaches north. If that doesn't work, try with your left hand - some people have success with one and some with the other. If that doesn't work either, get a right-angle piece of wire, hold it out at arm's length (don't hold it too tight but keep your arm stiff) and 'ask' the rod to point north. It should revolve in your hand (don't poke your eye out!!).
Best wishes, Kathrinn
12 April 2007
15 min 16 sec
Sorry for the misinterpretation, then :)
You know, it's interesting that you think dowsing is not a psychic ability per se. It reminded me of the essay co-written by Robert Schoch in the last Darklore, about psychotronic weapons tried during the Romanian Revolution of 1989.
Robert explains that, to the Russian scientists investigating psychic abilities, the definition of 'psychic' was somewhat different from their Westerner colleagues; this stemmed from the Communist contention of rejection of the spirit, and so that's why they came up with all these ideas of 'biophysical energy' etc etc.
They also weren't shy of trying the mix of electronic or radio devices in order to enhance the abilities of individuals; something that Westerner scientists would probably not find very 'kosher', but to the Soviets, "if it worked, it worked".
We've also discussed in the past how to make the distinction between 'psychic' & 'paranormal' contrary to 'normal' phenomena may be a mistake. So in that sense, even though I obviously don't share the atheism of the Soviet scientists, I think they may have been more accurate than their Western colleagues in the approach to psychic phenomena.
Bottom line is, establishing whether dowsing is a psychic ability or not might be a bi pointless. The important thing would be to study HOW it works, and whether it can point to us a deeper understanding of the human body's reaction to electromagnetic fields.
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
10 August 2004
4 days 7 hours
Pleased we've sorted that out - I consider you a friend and would never deliberately insult you or feel insulted by you!
I fully agree with the last paragraph of your post, but until such time as the "experts" stop dismissing water-dowsing as bullsh$t no such experiments will be carried out. The results of same could be extremely enlightening. I'd like to know myself, as I find I'm extremely sensitive to changes in the magnetic field.
Best regards, Kathrinn
22 October 2009
14 weeks 3 days
Putting aside the whys and wherefores of dowsing, I am incredulous that the Iraqi security services would purchase so many of these if they had not seen a convincing demonstration. Since these have, I assume, been used in Iraq, they must have had some success or would quickly have realised they'd been duped. I confess I haven't really followed the story, so I don't know who has shopped the bloke who's been selling them.
To be honest the whole story seems to lack credibility to me. I did, however, immediately recognise that some of the media seemed to use it as an excuse to suggest dowsing itself was nonsense - I thought that dowsing was widely recognised, if not fully understood.
I was just about to go and test out Kat's 'North' experiment, then realised I'd need a compass to check the result... then realised that if I knew the answer in advance this would invalidate the test...
22 November 2004
5 weeks 16 hours
...I was just about to go and test out Kat's 'North' experiment, then realised I'd need a compass to check the result... then realised that if I knew the answer in advance this would invalidate the test...
Come on now, that one is easy.
First you do the 'north' experiment without a compass. You write down the results.
Then 2 weeks later you get yourself a compass and check if you were correct some decent percentage of the time.
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We are the cat.
22 October 2009
14 weeks 3 days
The real difficulty is finding myself somewhere where I don't already have a fair idea where north is. I'm presuming the test isn't pinpoint accurate. I did think of getting my wife to try it since she has a dreadful 'sense of direction' - this is not a comment on women but happens to be true of my wife.
Which reminds me of many years ago visiting the Rollright Stones in Oxfordshire, England with my (then) new girlfriend (now wife). She had no real interest or knowledge of stone circles or anything related. We were the only ones present (a group of four of us) and my wife tried her hand at dowsing (equipment provided from a shed on site). Both she and my friend's partner tried it and found the movement of the rods identical (moving apart at centre and to NSEW). The results here are nearly always the same but they had no prior knowledge of it.
Which takes us back to a news report on the bomb detectors - the report I saw had a journalist being shown that dowsing is just people tilting (unconsciously or otherwise) their hands, sometimes as a result of looking in a particular direction. Most people at the Rollright Stones get the same results, often, like my wife, with no prior knowledge. Coincidence? It certainly wasn't unconsciously knowing when and in what direction to tilt hands.
10 August 2004
4 days 7 hours
Jackinthegreen - earthling is quite right. Do the test first, check the compass afterwards, that way you can't be influenced by what you know. If you live in a place where you can see the stars - particularly northern hemisphere - don't bother with the compass, have a look for the pole star. (Still possible in the southern hemisphere, but it has to be an estimated guess by using the Southern Cross and the Pointers, as the star nearest the south pole is very faint.)
Incidentally - I'm Kathrinn, not Kat. Kat is our lady admin who posts wonderful news lists once a week. Different person.
Good luck - I may have won another convert!
Regards, Kathrinn
22 October 2009
14 weeks 3 days
My apologies Kathrinn. While I've been a silent follower of TDG for some years, I've only recently started paying attention to particular individuals.
I was interrupted during my last comment so didn't see your suggestions until I'd posted the comments.
Do you have any explanation for the North thing? I am going to use my wife for my experiment because I trust the honesty of her response. Should I tell her beforehand that she should experience a tingling?
Regards
Jack
10 August 2004
4 days 7 hours
No apology needed - I was just setting the record straight - Kat's much more clever than I am, I could never collect all that wonderful news she finds!
Regarding your wife - yes I think she should be told what she may experience, otherwise she might not pay sufficient attention and miss the feeling. It's reasonably specific, incidentally, not just a generalised tingling in the vague direction of north.
I don't have any explanation for the north thing, just as I have no explanation for the water-dowsing thing - it just happens (and to more people than is realised). I didn't know I could do it until I saw someone else doing it and wanted to try. In my case I guess it's some connection with a sensitivity to magnetism. Maybe that's always the case - I just don't know, which is why it would be very interesting if some unbiased scientist could *believe* that it does happen and research the why and wherefore.
Please keep me posted - I'm interested!!
Best of luck - Kathrinn