What do you do about suicide?

So, scenario is this. A friend long time close buddy, always depressed, always just in so so mood, you are always picking up the pieces to their life in hopes it will make a difference, you cheer them on everyday, you write positive notes in reply to their negative ones, you give of yourself constantly and rescue, no no no , they try to manipulate you further, guilt trip you, you are not giving enough of your sefl, but you are giving all you got and you have always, you are burned out from constant emotions that reek of hell and drama and you speak your words of console and take on teh extra work to ease the burden of your fried thinking that it will hepl, years go by, this person claims they have a mental disorder and have all of their life, they have never taken any medication to see if it would work and help them, they say no, they want to do it naturally, of course they fail as they are unable to complete a task, so you change course with them and suggest something else, but they give you their reason why it won't work before they have even tried it, this continues day after day, you are worn out, they beat you down and do not allow you to not take a break with out telling you that you do not care, but they fail to see your daily efforts, you carry their weight and are silent about it, you do not draw attention to their lack of contributio to their own life, they lack the ability to want to care for themselves, then they want you to be like them, they claim you are when you know precisley you are not, they want to die because they feel no love in their life and claim they have always been denied love and have been alone, they do not see color in the world, they can only see black and white, you show them bursting bright reds and yellows and they claim you have shown them nothing, they want to die, and want you to die with them as they are alone in death as well, you try all you can and nothing works, they bathe themselves in sorrow and wantto have a sorrow poor me provoking arguement of why they are right about not taking medications as it will amke them even more depressed and then they might really kill themselves, but they say they will do it anyway if they are not on meds, but they complain and whine and you are looking at them with grief and despair and help help help and your life is then consumed with trying to always salvage soemthing good out of something bad, but, they see no good in anything, and then have a false illusion about themself and turn low self esteem into important granduer and delusions of grandiose order, you try to get them to see some perspective, they are unwilling as they say change is not capable, you are left with wondering what in teh hell am I doing this for as you are never thanked for your efforts. YOur battery is drained and all energy is being sucked up by the other just to survive another day to complain and want to die anyway. What do you do? Do you walk away and let the person fend for themself and if they knock themself off well so be it or do you get them committed, is it your rignt to step in and help when it is thier life?If they continually guilt trip you into not leaving or they will die they need you to take care of them but they do not want to care for themself, are you responsivle to continue to care for them? Is it spiritually ethical to walk away and put your needs first or is that selfish, or is it selfish of the other person to constatnly demand attention even when you ahve no more to give and what you do give is not akcnowleged, what do you do? Is some one taking their own life so bad if they are so miserable anyway and your time and life is spent trying to keep them from not killing themself>? WHat do you do? DO you let them have free will and use thier own judegment as in what they think of their life really is their right to think anyway, so, again, what about the ethics of allowing a perosn to think that aobut themself. If they are truly unhappy and never have joy and no joy is ever welcomed as that means they might be improving and they do not want to improve as it means they no longer get the attention they seek, or is it they are incapable of grasping improvement and what a happy life is with out paranoia and grief, I mean, crap, I could go on and on,but by now i think who ever is reading this is catching my drift I hope. I have many more thoughts, but, I feel I have listed enough to ask the question, what do you do with someone when they constantly want to commit suicide? Do you allow them free will or do you stick them in a looney bin (oh God I would hate to be in one of those then I would want to die myslef) do you take their free will away or do you walk away and leave them with love and light and await the out come? What? I am at a loss here. I am nerved out and feel I need soem input from the people I am close to, which is the Grail, I have no others I feel that would understand what I am trying to convey as there is mcuh to do about spirit and souls and karma and free will, co dependency, all of that that we here on the Grail understand.

XC

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the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
9 years 41 weeks

Colette, we are each responsible for our own lives in this world.
I believe that we help if we can, but we must help ourselves first or we cannot help others.
Unload this energy vampire unless he/she seeks clinical help.
What is the point of this person dragging you down to his/her level?
I am not a Christian and have no problem with saying that you do not take on other people's problems when they are more than you are able to handle.

Suicide is the most terrible thing a person is ever called upon to handle because it kills not one person, but the others involved as well.
It is intended to hurt.
It is mostly revenge enacted upon another or even if that is not the case, it is such deep despair that no one should be required to handle it by themselves.

Colette, you are a kind person.Tell the authorities about this friend so he/she can be helped.
That is the kindest thing you can do.

love shadows

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

I have thought that many times to do that.

ALso, I feel that to tell another person that constantly is spiteful and manipulative and it is meant to hurt me, or that person is a child like nature and wants to act out and pout, but, they truly are mess up, and I have tried and tried, and they really do have a mental thing wrong with them. But, they use it as a method to get what they want as well and I suspect this has been so since child hood and it is a pattern. And when I say do not write that they write, "I feel liek that word you told me not to write for about 45 minutes, then I felt Ok, then I now feel like that word you told me not to write, so, since I can not wirte it, I will not write it, but just to let you know how I feel , I will not write it but tell you I was thinking it, I just can't write it. " Soemthing liek that, I swear, it is really weird.........a note liek that about "the word." You see I tell this person to not write about it to not think about it as to write about it it is on their mind and to find soemthing else to write about.I also do not like 5-6 days a week to deal with it, "the word.....suicude."

You see, they play games with it, that is what messes with my mind. Like it is a game. I am confused about how much to interfere with one's own life, but, I also know too that this person is gravely ill. It is very diifficult. I don't know what to do really. I find my self having to just not do anything and my life is at a standstill and I am in a state of "God, I wish this would get over with and something good would happen. ....." I pray to my god for guidance, I ask my elders, eveything, I am not Christian, I am just me, so I really do not know who God is or who my elders are, but who ever it is that knows I am here, some one does it seems or soemthing knows i am I mean, even if it is that thing that lays on my bed. Soemthing knows what i am going through.

Thank you........................I will mark that down as one for the bin.........I will keep track of opinions here. I may not always comment, but, I will count and read suggestions for sure, I did not write this post with out thinking about how I felt for a long long time. Many many months before I even opened my mouth (or fingers) for help, this is something I am not taking lightly.

XC

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
9 years 41 weeks

Colette, people mess with other people's minds because they can.
They do it because we allow them to do it.
Without our consent they cannot do it.
You are acting as this person's enabler by listening to this stuff.

You know what it is like to have to be strong.Now is the time to remember that strength you have and to use it.

Save yourself.

This is all my humble opinion of course.

love shadows

plw12752anderson's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
9 years 5 weeks

Dear Colette, Knowing that this individual is severly depressed (or bi-polar) a diagnosis needs to be done through assessment and evaluation to make those determinations. Your friend is adamantly in denial of their culpability in their self sabatoging actions, this calls for an intervention. These mental health care providers are people who are careful and always cognizant of suicidal tendencies. This is beyond the scope of family members and friends, they too have an emotional investment and the intervention allows that aspect.

Do look into that for this person. If not they will waylay you (it's a type of abuse) until you actually do feel like your depressed, crazy or both. In reality, it's a no win situation by their rules. The right person that can get this started would show how the steps are taken, ease the burden of caregivers and friends. This constant manipulative co-dependence saps loved ones of their energy to the point they don't care what happens. Then the results are there are many people ill, not just that one.

I wish you well and hope for the best in regards to your friend. Love, Pam -----------------------------Truth is stranger than fiction.

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

Wow, it is weird to finally get it off my back. Enabling is what I have been trying to not do, and that is when the abuse comes in and the insults and I stop communication as I do not deserve that. I do not want to enable this person to whine and continue to be a child. And that is why it is hitting a head right now as I beleive this person realizes I am at my wits end and knows I am ready to take action. It just depends on what action I will take. I do not know yet. My future rests on my choice, I am not dependent on any one. I do not want to be. I have had to be by myslef for many years to recover as I have no family that could help me, I just had me and my animals. My son was in school and I never wanted to disrupt that and he was too young anyway, he was starting college and , no, I did not even want him to know too much as he was in Cailfornia, so no need to get him upset and hinder his young adult hood with being my care taker. But, I had my inner self, that is what I have tried to teach this person to use their inner stregnth, but, they like the attention of being a victim and I do not feed into that and now that is where the anger is coming from so, I feel like, hey, don't you dare , no, do not even start with abuse on me .

Bi-polar, Complusive Obsessive, or Skizo, and I am leaning towards skizo because of the many symtpoms of paranoia and the delusions,and there can be many cross overs in the diagnoses. I could list all three and add one, multiple personailty disorder. Lately there has been verbal violence I had never seen in this person before and I see it getting worse. It has now happened twice and it was directed at me, and no way, I did not deserve that and I about walked off and let the person rot. But, this person will not go to a doctor, it would have to be an involuntary commitment. I have doen many, I am well educated in the mental health field and law. I do not like this role as care taker for this perosn as it is taken for granted as I have always given to this perosn and to ohers as I am a doctor first. However, the people I have helped the most and create a new life, they were willing and able. This person is not willing and seems unable as the unwilling is just not turing around. This perosn is in denial at times, others not, fully admits, but, admitting is nothing more than that, it is not action. When I have cared for patients my regime and therapy has only worked when the patient is receptive to my care and they need to prcatice the principles I teach them along with diet and exercise and learn to be responsible for them selves and take care, it is a choice, a personal choice. I see this perosn wants to be taken care of that is this person's way of feeling loved and it is not a healthy way to feel any love. The children are not loving because they are angry at the issue of the metnal health. It is a facade of family acting out love, but, no real feelings of love or embracement. It is sad, but, not too sad to get over for goodness sake. That is why all signs and sympotms are pointing me in the direction of bin time....knock on wood, and however this person feels about me while in it if that does indeed happed, well , I am strong enough, I can deal with that, so no worry their. Just want soemthing to start moving in a psotive direction and that means making soem changes and I will have to start them what ever they will be. SO, I appreciate you folks shooting me yout thoughts as we always shoot one another with our thoughts and ideas and help. So, I do want to thank you as I had to write,but, you know what, that was a good thing for me to do, I am smiling now as I feel a big rock off me and I can see I am making progress in starting to make that change and that comes from being able to discuss this openly. NO one should be ashamed of mental dis-ease.....not comforatble, not in peace, dis as in with out, ease, no ease in this person's life in the mental emotional realm. SO, there must be change for thigns to turn around and this was the first major breaking point for me to be able to bring it out in the open and say hey, help please, I need some help here and I feel really allright with it. I knew I would be safe here to discuss it and it makes my eyes water when I think of the few years I have been here and the many friends I have that have taken me in under their wings. I too some day will be an angel or a buzzard, but , somthing with wings....that is for sure.

Yes, I have had to be strong Shadows, I remember first stumbling upon teh Grail and I was so weak. Since then I have come light years, some fall backs, but I came back. It might be the wrong attitude to take, but, when I think of what I have lived through for so many years and have not asked for much help at all and I have healed a whole lot in ways by using my own techiniqes I have figured out for me, I feel others can do it too, but, maybe they can not and it is not right for me to think that they can, maybe they can't. But, I feel they should try and allow me some peace and not try to suck from me any more as they feel I have some unusual powers of healing and I will be their magic wand, I am not, I am a friend who cares. If I can do it, they can do it, but, maybe they can not, I never had mental disease , although I have Post traumatic Stess Disorder but i know how to manage that by keeping away from stessors and triggers......Yeah, I do not need a mental person tyring to trigger me either so they can have soem fun and watch me shake, "Oh gee look at her...isn't she so darling when she jiggles her little butt like that while she holds her heart in with both hands and cries, wow, is that a new song and dance routine? Great Rap, boy that gal can really wail" But I take good care or myself and know what to do, plus i have meds on hand i take if needed to get back into peace and calm and my heart rate down and the willies out of me. I am a good girl scout, I take my littel goodies with me where ever I go and I never forget my compass, if I do, I know how to navigate by the stars,,,, each little soul still up there wathing us down here. That is what I think about stars at times -- the times when I am not a scientist type person.... haha. Walt Disney Grade is more like it, or whoever wrote Twinkle Twinkle little Star - How I wonder who you are. OK, I am digressing here so I must be feeling better and not so upset. I will try to go to sleep again, but the sun is starting to want to come up, darn..........I am good for another 6 hours at least.

Thank you very much. There are many dear people to me here.
XCXC

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net

Kathrinn's picture
Member since:
10 August 2004
Last activity:
2 years 30 weeks

Unload this person - they are playing mind games with you. And they are particularly insidious and stressful mind games which will eventually bring you down too.

From what you say I honestly don't feel that this person wants to be helped or to help themself. I bet that every suggestion you make to them is countered with an excuse starting "Yes but ..." - this is a mind game. I know that because my husband used to play it. The whole point of the game is to keep saying "Yes but (that wouldn't work because ...) until you are run out of ideas. They don't want a solution, that is the solution, that you have no further suggestions to make, and then they have won the game. Pretty stupid, but it's a real favourite!

I feel you should tell this person that you are not able to offer any further help and they must seek medical advice, and be extremely firm about this. But, be careful - they could turn very nasty if they think they're about to lose someone who has been feeding them the attention they crave.

If they should go ahead and commit suicide, that will be their choice, and you have no reason to feel guilt about it. We are not put on this planet to stop folk from killing themselves if that is what they want to do, or even a statement they want to make (albeit a pretty final one).

You are a caring, loving and giving person. We know that. You have obviously done your very best to help your friend, but you can't help those who won't meet you half way. You have needs too, and I think it's time you started putting yourself at the head of the help list. Don't let yourself get dragged down by someone who, having exhausted you completely, will simply go off looking for a replacement attention-giver.

It won't be easy - I know that. But you can do this. We will send you energy and love.

Take care, and look after yourself. Love, Kathrinn.

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
Last activity:
9 hours 19 min

It really looks like this person needs professional help. If they can't get out of their depression after years of friendly help, more years of friendly help won't work either.

Perhaps (s)he is just taking advantage of you Collette, And perhaps that is a symptom of their mental problem. But it really doesn't matter, you can't help more than you already have.

----
There are 3 kinds of people. Those who can count, and those who cannot.

RealityTest's picture
Member since:
16 August 2006
Last activity:
2 days 20 hours

Dear Colette:

I've tried various approaches to this over the years.

One friend is an alcoholic who is quite clever and entertaining when sober but at times expresses a desire to die or do himself in, particularly when less than perfectly sober.

I have learned that what works best with him is to simply suggest that this is his choice to make, and his alone, while continuing to appreciate him for his -- when it's active -- sense of humor and cleverness. I don't encourage him but neither do I tell him he is wrong, sick, or whatever -- he already understands that his alcoholism is a sickness but refuses to seek treatment for it. I am only gruff and direct -- angry -- with him during those rare times when he, drunk, calls in the middle of the night.

Another very old friend suffers from an Elizabethan melancholia (in modern terms, she is frequently quite depressed) and finds much to be unhappy about, both in the world and herself. (At the same time, she appreciates finer things -- music, art, literature, beauty, and so on, to a degree that is rare, while in her younger days she had a number of transcendent experiences -- these are her gifts.)

I used to fight with her during her frequent bouts of melancholia, finding it tiresome and often losing my patience and growing angry.

This accomplished little.

I gradually learned to just let her be the way she chose to be and to appreciate her for her gifts while neither reacting in anger nor allowing myself to get sucked into her more negative humors. After a while, she stopped expressing her negative thoughts and feelings to me, for the most part.

This greatly decreased the time we spent together or spoke with each other, of course, but at least that which remains is of a high quality.

Both are clearly friends/family members/associates from other times and places and I tend to value such relationships, with their distinctive whiffs of bygone life experiences, highly.

I believe a part of us lives in many times and places at once, but not all relationships evince any indication of this; those that do are always somewhat special to me, particularly when the 'other' relationship or relationships -- those in some other situation -- were of a positive and/or close nature. There's nothing quite like a close friend or companion who has been such 'before' and is likely to be so again (and again, as the case may be).

I am not suicidal or depressed although I do have occasional and fairly brief down moments; also, when younger, I dealt with several long periods of depression and even what some call "mental illness."

Owing to this, I have gradually become more allowing of the moods and beliefs of others, up to a point (the point is when their behavior begins to impinge, becomes a frequent nuisance), knowing that 'mental illness' is a very loose term, its finer definitions mostly nonsense, for the most part, having more to do with societal beliefs and a pressure to conform to what is considered 'normal' than anything else.

In some ways, I find our present mass reality itself 'mentally ill,' a negative reaction to it the sign of a healthy soul -- coping with this successfully is a challenge and not everyone is up to the task.

So my valuing of those who are clearly 'repeat' friends from some other -- perhaps slightly less bewildering -- human situation will tend to override any difficulties I may experience with them should they 'have problems.' I will try to find some way to accomodate them that does not greatly infringe on my enjoyment of life.

(Gads -- I sometimes take the train to Boston from a tony North Shore community and have been told by some residents, some "train friends," that nearly everyone in the community is taking Prozac or something similar. What kind of a world do we live in -- are we creating, some would say?)

Bill I.

argosfalcon's picture
Member since:
31 August 2004
Last activity:
4 years 22 weeks

I have fought these demons myself and know that in my case I had to reach deep within myself to change things, eveyone is different but I know that my friends suffered along with me, but in the end knew that lasting change comes from within I hope your friend get the help they need and if they or you ever need an ear to bend feel free to bend mine.
It Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

Just being human we have emotions and deal with our brain and mental facilities. I too have had many dark nights, I do not know how I overcame them, but, all I have is meditation, and then meds as needed. I am reading every one's words. THis is helping me very much as a support to understand I am not too quick to just reacte. I have been very understanding and also aware of the games to not play into them. I am tired though of it as I say, it is not a win win situation. It is a stalemate. I have no power to give this person it must come from them and they must want it.

I see the goodness, I always have or the person would not have been my friend for so long. I allow for odd behaviour in every one as we are all human. Haha .oh dear , that is frightening at times.

Yes, I agree our society plays a big role in today's mental health issues. I also think pollution and EMF are wired into it as well. People who lead a regulated life , well, some of them need that. I am a very forgiving person, but, I have laerned to also say no. I am getting to the point of no, no, no more. That is why I am opening up to check my sensitity level to make sure I am not over reacting to a issue that maybe I could be better at handling. I feel what I have writen is honest and a correct assessment in my analysis of this person's symptoms and manipulations. SO, I need time to deal with it. AS I do not want to loose a friend, but, I want them to be healthy and happy. I agree there needs to be professional help. It will be up to them, or I will intervene at one point , but, that will be out of caring, not vindictivness or anger. It would be for the sake of helping this person. If I need to walk away, I suppose I will have to for my own sake of well being.

Along with this person is the family and and friends that are too strange and disfuctional and are causing me grief. When a person is so incapable of judging other' s character and has no boundaries of who they associate with and how those poeple have a daily affect on that person's life and are very negative and how they enter mine and are rude, weird and possesive and inflate the problems, well, that adds much to the equation of , hey, this is screwed up. All of these people are ill and they are attracted to each other as they accept each other's disfunctionality. I do not accept it and choose to be a more positive person, they in turn dislike that and cause more problems.......... they are like a clan. Getting rid of the outsiders that are weird too is very difficult. So, it is not one, it is the surrounding debris of weirdoes. All of them need to grow up and get healthy and get along. They beat on each other mentally, it is not healthy for this perosn, or none of them. I do not care about those others, they are not my frienda, and I would never have a friend liek them that is that twisted to go out of their way to hurt another person they see is ill, they want to hurt them more and bring them down farther to their level. I am not going there. That person is in the processs of letting go of the past in some ways, so that is another reason why I am trying to be patient, but, there is much programming and patterns with family and freaks.

I am Ok aobut everything, just worn out from constant strain of daily crap that is not needed. I want this off my back so I can be creative again and not deal with idiotic mind games that stifle me and take my time up and exhaust my mind and suck energy. I am more than a doctor and care taker. I am me, and that is more than a manager of some one's brain function. If it was appreciated or recognized as help that would be different. But it is not , it is a demand and conditional, no, that is not right. I will deal with this and it will take some time as I do not want any hurtful actions on any one's part. No one is to feel pain so it is a delicate situation. And yes, that was correct, they always have a reason why nothing will work as if they want to stay the way they are and just complain about it, there is no solution that is the solution to them excpet pouting and complaining and seeking pity instead of seeking help. But, that is part of the dis ease.

Dark nights. Yes, I remember them well. I had one last night. Thank you every one. I really do listen and take to heart each and every post. If I felt I could make this decision myself I would not have asked, but, I felt it wise to get some input, clarity, make sure I am not just too sensitive. But, I feel like I have many years behind me in the mental health category and seeing clients.

WEll this is all very weird to say the least. I feel very exposed and naked in expressing myself, but, that is in the need of getting rid of thoughts that need to be let out so I do not keep repeating the questions in my mind and the old , Whose on first, no whose on second, no whose on first,,,,,,that is definetly redundant brain function with no positive outcome. I am into solution, so, going for that instead of rewind.
Thank you,
XCXCXXC

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net

argosfalcon's picture
Member since:
31 August 2004
Last activity:
4 years 22 weeks

Well living an experience and offering some advice is well holding a willing cat and just holding one. My training says one thing and having lived it says another. life is well, worth the pain but I know both sides of that song. I don't know the who what and where but I can say that being away from those that I love (if even to bug their e-mail)was for me, a way back
It Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time

ciamarra's picture
Member since:
19 April 2007
Last activity:
3 years 4 weeks

someone with depression needs the help and guidance from the ones that truely love them to insure they have taken care properly. i spend 3weeks at hopital lobby and didnt sleep much there -when my mother in icu - and i hated to see her choking in pain at times when there was no-one around to clean the tube in her throat but glad i was there to grap a nurse immediately. medication is the same thing - you need someone to give it to them to insure they take it and the correct medication. she died just the same but i was there - and she died in my arms and i will never forget her last breath.

with depression to often - certain medication work well for some and not for others. Zyprexa worked great for my mother but apparently here in canada some drs use the cheaper drugs first and its approach where you test it out and wait. but the one depressed truely needs someone to insure they take their meds - and sometimes the ones who love them the most may not be the spouse or family. power of attorney is sooo important before hand - and most dont think of doing one in their youth because they feel they will never get sick.

i know prozac is taken alot and it does work alot for the bulk of cases which is great - but there are the few cases especially in youths that cause them to want to commit suicide - but they are depression in the first place - so the meds are a must and its best to give meds to suicidal people that cure 99.9 people. my mother prozac didnt work - that Zyprexa was a wonder drug for her. DRUGS must be taken.

the fears in someone depressed person is so sad that some shake from the fears. and we all can see why your friend is upset with the ways of the world - pollution etc - polticians and governments just dont care and are corupt. i learn about pollution - global warming and population boom 30 years ago and nothing has been done - its sick.

but in the world of such coruption and evil - one must look to the love and beauty in the hearts and souls of the few around us or people we once knew that were so special in our hearts - for me that will shine on in my soul forever and be proud i had parents like i did.

one must think that today may be awefull and think of suicide but some dont realize if you only get by this stage in their life - one could be happy later - as my mother was.

people who are sick must rely on the ones closest to them to be there for them and hopefully will be able to find the right road to lead them to the right path - instead of institions = hospitals or family memebers who couldnt care less. when someone is depressed - their free will isnt free will its more like temp insanity and need someone help to get by it.

i would try to contact dr - Zyprexa is expensive - i think it may be worth the try. DRUGS must be taken - and the problem with these drugs for depression is that it takes like 6 weeks to finally kick in.

reminds me of the old italian saying in our little town-
"a mother has the courage to raise 10 kids but 10
kids cant take care of their mother"

basically some italians didnt like the lack of respect some
other italians had with a aging parent who needed them later in life when they were old and sick. for not all italians are the same -

tell your friend i had a dream about my parents - and i was told it is a beautiful there and my parents told me they were doing gods work in heaven. but tell your friend there are still a few souls that sing here on this planet that do still make it special and worth living for.

i will post something in other post in the next day or 2 - regarding the 4th of july - i think i may release something oooooooo sooooo special

jaako's picture
Member since:
12 February 2007
Last activity:
9 years 42 weeks

What is not clear to me is, who is the most significant other in this person's life. If it is you Collette, you can out-manipulate this person by having them take you to a clinic for help. You re-dump back on them and play victim, you tell them you can't make it without their help. Make demands upon them zakly the way they do. The point here is to pre-arrange a clinic visit on the guise its for you and have the therapist do an intake interview on you buddy to elicit from them what they feel is yer major mal-function, what can yer buddy offer in the way of long-term help.

A really savvy experienced counselor has dealt with this scenario before. This ploy was used to bring in foot-dragging spouses Kathrinn described. They want help on their terms, the risk being an overt suicide. If an actual dramatic point of no-return attempt like drinking Drano, taking 50 Tylenol, drinking a half-gallon of rotgut vodka has happened and they failed to do themselves in, the chances of a repeat performance diminish with time.

If nothing this drastic has occurred there can be a trigger to set one up if , in yer case, yer buddy feels entrapped. The interview is not a therapeutic encounter it is the start of developing trust in another person who assumes the role of significant other. If yer buddy is more secure in the presence of a female you get a female counselor for this role transition. The catharsis point will have to occur at some time before a real-life crisis hits, divorce, death of spouse, loss of job and house, etc. These real life crises normal folk have a hard time coping with will hit yer buddy even harder 'cuz they have no fall back security net, other than you.

You remind me of so many good-hearted samaritans who wear their heart on their sleeve, Bible calls them the salt of the earth, I have no idea what Bible -haters call folk like that. I can guess cynics would call them suckers, easy prey, whatever. You did your moral and ethical best to sustain this person's existence. I have to go back and do a re-read 'cuz I can't recall you mentioning if or not this person has a functioning belief system, and of what nature.

I bring this up 'cuz if this person is a closet alcoholic there is the possibility of permanent liver or brain damage to consider. If they haven't been acutely hospitalized as a result of hitting the bottle overtime, you have other chemical imbalances to cope with that need competent medical assessment.

I have lots more questions to ask of a general nature but I don't want to sound like I am preaching or telling you what to do. The choices are known, its really a question of hitting upon the best strategy. There is a time honored phrase, cynical as all hell, take care on number 1, first.

thefloppy1's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
1 year 13 weeks

I wasn't going to comment in this thread. I have read it all though and can feel the pain and confusion.

What I will say is your...jaako... advice is very good advice.

We can find ourselves in a position of helplessness in trying to help someone who seems to not want to help themselves. Sometimes changeing the dependency role will help.
It's the root of the problem that needs to be found. Some suicide because of continuous depression, others are spir of the moment things, and some are a mental disturbance in their head that no one can really understand.
It's too complecated to put your finger on one thing. But usually those who speak of it all the time are the last to do it. It's a cry for help. Or a need to feel the centre of someone's universe.
Isolate the reason and the answer is found.

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

bladerunner's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
3 years 6 hours

I'm so sorry this person is doing this to you. After reading several postings, I agree that you have to let others around you know how this person is behaving. And what you are being put through is wrong in itself. Earlier in my life I had a dear boyfriend that had a complete breakdown in college. His parents had no clue to his behavior. And I wish I had spoken to them about it. I spoke to my parents about what was happening and they were pretty useless about it. As they were with my soon after breakdown but they had no understanding of mental health care. Please get professional guidance before this person takes you down with them. It is all very draining.

jaako's picture
Member since:
12 February 2007
Last activity:
9 years 42 weeks

greg don't like my bubba style, so all I can say is I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you find peace of mind, ..bye

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

Yes, there would need to be a hospital at first to observe the affects of the medication, and any behaviour modifications. Prozac, that is scary medicine as it does cause clinical depression at times and ideological suicide. Meds need monitoring. Some are very good, some are cheap and , well, they are not proper and the biggest problem it to find a specialist who understands and is well educated about psycho tropic pharmaceuticals and how to create recipes that are not interacting in a negative way and even create a toxic effect , but are beneficial and actually load up in the system and work. These doctors are hard to find that are both educated and have proper bedside manners and are compassionate. Some doctors are like that nurse Ratchet in the movie, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. How would you like her to be your doctor? I would run away like that big Indian Chief did. Poor Jack Nicholson (Randall P. McMurphy) ….he got a lobotomy

There is no significant other, just debris of significant others and that is part of the problem. A person would need to be with this person 24 hours a day to monitor their mood. Also, keeping company and being a good listener. I can listen and recommend, I can treat, only to some degree as I said, the patient must be open and receptive. I find this to be a game moreso, and that is the frustrating part. In ways, they want me to hurt as they do, they do not want to be alone in their world. I would like to bring them back into a happy world filled with music and beauty, to be able to have joy, experience joy. Just a friend I do not want to see gone or live such a horrible life if they are to continue to live.

I took care of my mother and grandmother, they both passed in my arms, literally. Many months of 24 hours a day care for my mother, and then 6 years of care for my grandmother when I moved her here to NC after my mother passed. I will never regret those times. It taught me many things about human nature and family, love, things about my self I was unaware of, learning how to forgive my mother, forgiveness is difficult. My Grandmother, she taught me many things in life, and feel I am most like her in many ways.

My friend has a lot of family around them, many friends and people at work to see, but, feels alone. I wish for them to see they are not alone. They try to diagnose them self, that does not work. It has been years and years from what I understand. No, I have never seen this person with a drug or alcohol problem, and I would know if they had an alcohol problem because of physical symptoms related with that disease and I would see it in their face in my office if that was to be true, and know when they are lying. This person does not lie about that sort of thing, just in denial about other stuff….haha … Well, there is much about mental health we all are learning.

I knew for my own sanity at the time to reach out to friends here to say, hey, I need to help here, am I thinking correctly, these are my choices, these are my friend’s choices, what is free will, when they are so far delusional they do not have free will, it is taken away from them by their disease.

Many of us have experienced some form of depression. I also think every one in their life has thought about passing, but, those are temporary moments that usually go by, or maybe last during a crisis, but one moves on. To live a life though constantly suffering in emotional and delusional pain, well, that is much to endure for a person and I can see why they would want to end it, but do not understand why they will not seek help, that is why I think the victim scenario comes into affect and the games as then that person can have attention and be taken care of. I am in no position to have a mentally ill person coming to my home and try to take care of them even a few hours a day as I have more to my life and relationships that I am involved in. This person has family, but, that family is messed up and that is part of the problem, also their minds are messed up, like they seem to me to all be insane. This person is a good person. All I can do now is say how I feel and it will be up to them what they want to do as I will most likely resign from being a doctor or caretaker in this instance as it is not a positive growing out of the problem case and recovering situation, it is becoming a game. I do not play games, and that is my red flag, when the flags were waving I got on here and did my reality check. I feel I have understood every one in a reasonable manner and every one has had great input into this area. I have felt much better being able to write about it and not keep it held inside, as I do not want to harbor bad feelings or do something to hurt any one. So, I wanted to understand the basic thoughts of what people had to say about this sort of problem as many of us are like minded individuals here. I think we are all about centered on this and feel the same. So, this discussion has been very worth while for me and I thank every one.

Thank you.

XC

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net

Kat's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
5 weeks 3 days

Rather than constantly dwelling on the impossible quest of fixing another person's life, try something infinitely more do-able and rewarding - more introspection about yourself.

Perhaps you might want to start by asking yourself what you're getting out of this friendship. No - I don't mean what you wish you were getting out of it. I mean what are you getting out of this friendship exactly as it is right now? Here's a hint: Obviously, whatever you find rewarding about it isn't coming from the other person, so it must be something you're giving to yourself.

Relating to another person such as the one you've described - by trying to fix them and their life - reinforces some feeling you have about yourself. Whatever that feeling is, it's so strong, it's probably part of your definition of yourself as a person. For instance, perhaps a big part of your self-definition is that you're a 'helpful person'. And one way you try to prove just how 'selflessly helpful' you are, is by hooking up with someone who's broken, and then trying to fix them. Or perhaps you really want someone else to fix whatever's broken about yourself, and you think that after you help to fix them, they'll be so grateful, they'll want to help you fix you. In which case, maybe by focusing on fixing someone else, you're really trying to get out of having to fix you all by yourself. Maybe you're afraid of the real intimacy you might find with a friend who doesn't need fixing. Or maybe you think being helpful is the only thing you have to offer in a relationship, so you're attracted to people who are broken.

But like I said, you're getting something out of this friendship, and it's something you're giving yourself - something you think you need, and can't get any other way.

Being 'unhelpfully helpful' never fixes another person. All it does is give them a good excuse not to do anything for themselves. After all, anything that goes wrong in their life, they can just blame it on you not being a good-enough fixer. And of course, you trying to fix them makes them resentful - because by constantly trying to help them, what you're really doing is constantly judging them -- constantly giving them the message that you believe they're broken to the point of being incapable of introspection, intelligent self-insight, change, and personal growth.

If you really want to help this friend, the only way you might possibly do it is by example - by engaging in the tough but rewarding work of fixing yourself. But you won't be able to do that successfully unless you decide to do it for yourself - not just to be an example for someone else.

If you do decide to work on yourself, don't be surprised if your 'friend' doesn't hang around to see what a good job you do of it. The introspection necessary to change your life requires a magnificent amount of courage and self-compassion - qualities most people can't sustain. Most people who claim they've summoned that sort of courage, and have alreadly done their introspecting, just turn out to be arrogant, egotistical, hypocritical possers.

Kat

the shadow's picture
Member since:
24 June 2004
Last activity:
9 years 41 weeks

Kat that last paragraph feels like it applies to me.The harder I work at what I want myself to be, the more friends I lose.
Sad.

shadows

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

Hello,

I receive a good feeling when I see some one who has asked me to help them recover and they do. I do not receive a good feeling when a person asks my help and wastes my time. I am a person who believes it is good to share and help others if I am able. If helping another person heal fixes me, then I personally feel that is great and a positive way to exchange energy and interact with another human on this planet. I would rather spend my time doing that then spending my time conspiring to create war and destruction. If a person distracts from my daily well-being, I tell them they need to seek service elsewhere.

Mental illness is a difficult dis-ease to deal with as it may be a temporary crisis, or it can be quite acute and chronic. Corporations spend billions of dollars creating new terms for diagnosing new diseases to warrant new pharmaceuticals to sell. I am leery of many psycho-tropic medications unless administered by a specialist who has been in practice for many years and not a General Practioner pushing the new drug of the week that a salesman has left samples of to give out to patients complaining about their sadness, sleepless and lonely nights, headaches and so forth. In most instances mental health disorders are a temporary frame of mind induced by physical or emotional perpetrators or by environmental syndromes and not a “real” acute mental chemical imbalance. However, autism is very real, so is bi-polar and migraine headaches along with other psychopathia associations, even just clinical depression which can be very debilitating. This person has suffered and is well within the regime of indications of symptom requirements of long term duration that do warrant a specialist in neurological disorders and Psychiatry, not a Naturopathic Doctor such as myself. That is why I am considering an involuntary commitment where specialists are involved and observations of efficacy can be determined while medicines are adjusted. I can evaluate, educate, treat, perform minor surgeries and counsel on all medical issues, however I cannot prescribe pharmaceuticals or perform X-rays. When a specific disease does not respond to my form of therapy and there is no indication of a positive prognosis by use of modalities of treatment I am licensed to perform, I refer them to a specialist in allopathic medicine.

If helping another individual helps me in a positive way, I am all for it. That is what I get from helping others, a good feeling, and that is well worth the few that do not really want help. Even with this person being a friend, I view them as a patient, as they asked me to treat them. It is always difficult to treat friends as one gets emotionally involved. I do not turn away some one who needs help and seeks treatment/therapy, otherwise I would not have chosen to become a doctor. Moreover, I do turn those away who are my friends and those who are not my friend that do not follow my doctor patient agreement of them taking responsibility for their own health and follow any treatment plan that has been suggested and personally directed for their recovery. Whether I see a cancer patient seeking guidance that comes to me when they have already been pronounced terminal or a friend that is seeking guidance and fails on the program, either patient I lose hurts the same. It is a loss of human potential and life.

People who drop away when you are in a state of well-being were never your true friend in the first place, otherwise they would be supportive of you and be happy for you that you have progressed. I may be wrong in that, but, that is my feelings of that type of circumstance. I too have had people who did not want to see me get well, or do better with my life after my injuries as they would have liked me to suffer as they do. I think it makes them feel guilty or something, like they need to take a look at their own life and see how they can improve themselves. It takes effort, and a lot of people are lazy and just want to take that magic pill. No way. I would rather have few friends that are honest and true than ones that are superficial and want to hang out and co-commiserate because they lack the motivation to better their life or physical being.

XC

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net

Kat's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
5 weeks 3 days

>>Moreover, I do turn those away who are my friends and those who are not my friend that do not follow my doctor patient agreement of them taking responsibility for their own health and follow any treatment plan that has been suggested and personally directed for their recovery.

From what you've written about this 'friend', it's starkly evident that this person is not willing to take responsibility for their own well-being, and has not been willing to follow any treatment plan. Regardless of their wording of their request, there's a big difference between someone who sincerely asks for some form of treatment that you're qualified to give, and someone who only asks you for treatment as a way to manipulate you into doing everything for them, and/or to manipulate a way to have someone to constantly gripe to and emotionally abuse.

There's also a big difference between deriving professional emotional satisfaction from treating people who sincerely want the help you're qualified to give them, and unconsciously having such emotional satisfaction be a primary motivation for your treatment of them.

Doctors of all stripes may occasionally agree to treat relatively minor medical problems for personal friends; but typically, all doctors consider it both personally unwise and professionally unethical to agree to treat a major medical problem of someone they're very emotionally involved with, such as family members and close friends. And based on your description of the emotional dynamics in this relationship, you and your friend fall into the latter category.

Your inability to clearly see the dynamics of this emotional relationship, and the part your friend's illness plays in it - i.e. your complete lack of professional objectivity in this case - should be a big red flag that you need to immediately refer this friend to someone else for treatment, and then permanently desist from treating or 'helping' them in the future. If you still doubt that this is what you need to do, consider that no competent mental health professional would ever ban one of their patients from talking/writing about their suicidal ideation. They would insist on knowing about it. No competent mental health professional would repeatedly suggest to a suicidal patient that they should just 'think on the bright side'. They would have the patient sign a contract in which the patient agrees to immediately contact them if they were considering suicide, they would have a deep knowledge of suicidal depression from years of working with such patients, and they would have a written treatment plan - a plan which they'd discussed with the patient in detail, and which the patient had agreed to in writing - that would precisely spell out the legal steps the mental health professional would take in any given situation to keep the patient safe from self-harm. They would be aware that professional objectivity is a necessary prerequisite to competent assessment and treatment of anyone who is suicidally depressed, and if at any time during the course of treatment they became aware that they had secumed to counter-transference - i.e. they had become emotionally entangled in the patient's problems, and had lost their professional detachment - they would immediately refer the patient to another doctor.

The current situation between you and your friend is endangering the mental and emotional health of both you and your friend. In spite of this person having asked you, a personal friend, for help with this depression, you need to openly acknowledge the fact that this person has a well-established pattern of actively engaging in ongoing resistance to competent, objective professional treatment, and this resistance increases their risk of suicide. Your attempts to treat this person are much more likely to cause the person to postpone seeking such treatment than to be of any real help, and continuing to try to help this person, continuing to act as their emotional crutch, could very well cost them their life.

By now it should be as plain as day to you that, in their current emotional condition, this person is incapable of being a real friend to you or anyone else -- it's impossible to have a healthy emotional relationship with anyone who's suicidally depressed. You need to wake up and realize that you're allowing your unconscious emotional needs to endanger the life of your friend.

Kat

Richard's picture
Member since:
1 May 2004
Last activity:
2 years 38 weeks

Which may or may not help at all Colette.

The ability to cut off relationships is equivalent to our ability to terminate a karmic condition.

This said, this is so only in the measure that there is no chip left on your shoulder, that there is no feeling of guilt leftover.

The strength of a relationship that creates an emotional charge is always a karmic link, a karmic contract. The emotional ties that give us an impression of friendship with an individual that is making our life miserable is the cement that is used to insure that the experience is lived through.

There is always purpose, an occult purpose behind the relationship, that has a specific corrective to consciousness as an agenda.

Do we learn? What are we supposed to see?

A mental invaded with emotions will have a hard time to see his right and will tend to relativate its predicament by attributing it to some other person's attitude. In reality, the situation rises for us to grow beyond the condition, beyond the experience.

Until then, we are entrapped within our conceptualization of good and evil, within our spiritual nature and morale that demands of us to be at the service of others to the expense of our right to be dominant in regards to our own life.

that conceptualization is the karmic law that poses as our consciousness.

We cannot live others' lives like we cannot blame them for ours otherwise we cannot escape this condition.

On the other hand, we cannot go beyond a karmic condition until we have seen through it and that we are not psychologically implicated in it.

Hoping to have made sense to you.

Colette M. Dowell's picture
Member since:
26 February 2005
Last activity:
7 years 35 weeks

A person does not have to go to a doctor for care even when they know they are suicidal. That is why there are laws that are in effect. That is where an involuntary commitment occurs, when a patient, family member or friend will not seek the care of a Psychiatric Clinic. I can refer patients or friends to a doctor, it is their choice to go. If they are exhibiting signs of self harm or speaking about it within a 24 hour period, then the person who has witnessed this, family, friend, doctor or otherwise may then go to the Magistrate and sign papers seeking an involuntary commitment. Thereafter, the patient is picked up only in the County the papers were signed in and they are only in affect for a period of 24 hours. A person can drive 5 miles to the next County and avoid being picked up. It is very difficult to get some one into care as they “dodge” the system. If within the 24 hours they return into the County the papers for commitment have been signed, and if a policeman or sheriff’s deputy can serve them papers and pick them up, the person then must meet with 3 independent doctors. If 3 independent doctors sign off and say this person is held incompetent or is “suicidal” then a room must be found for the patient. Here in North Carolina there is a shortage of state maintained hospitals and private care is not available to people with out insurance. So, that is a major problem. It is very difficult to get some one served when they have a vehicle and can drive.

A No Harm to Self Contract is signed by the Patient when that patient is released from a facility after undergoing treatment, otherwise they are not released unless their insurance runs out. Those are the laws in North Carolina. Also, in this contract they must abide by the governing laws of the state and their practioner or they will be picked up again depending on their treatment program, insurance coverage , ect. They may be denied a “bed.” This is a term used for an available room, double occupancy or single. Most of the time a patient is denied a bed, because of lack of beds and they are not able to enter a facility. I find that to be terrible as many go with out treatment, that is why there are many ill people walking around this nation. A hospital stay is usually a three day observation, if drugs are administered, it will take 2 weeks usually before a release, however the most common stay is about 21 days, that is when most insurance companies stop coverage for inpatient treatment. The laws are constantly changing though in favor of the insurance companies. A stay inside the ward can be over $30,000.00, then there is the outpatient care and follow up program to cover as well.

I have now taken care of this process and this person will get the care they need. If they receive a good social worker, that social worker will help them with a good therapist and family counselor. Social workers have the ability to intervene with family and household depending on what the problem is and that also is regulated by the state. Laws differ from State to State.

It is quite common for a friend to seek help from their friend if they are an Attorney, Doctor, Plumber, who ever is needed before they seek the services of some one they do not know. Some people need to open up to a friend before they would ever tell a doctor what their thoughts are for fear of hospitalization. I am glad they came to me first as they would have never seen a psychiatric doctor if left to their own devices. Now they will get the care that is needed and that is best. The greatest doctor I ever had was a dear friend of mine before I saw him as my doctor. He was a good doctor for me to have to care for me as he knew me and understood my lifestyle and profession and we could also discuss my treatment plan as I am educated in medicine, anatomy and symptoms --- he told me I was a great patient as I understood what we were doing for my treatment as I was involved with my own treatment plan. We were also colleagues and worked with clients together off and on. I referred many to him, he referred many to me as we are in to different modalities of treatment, however we complimented each other on our treatment plans and discussed regularly the needs of a client. I was his patient for over nine years. He just passed in January of this year.

I am through discussing mental health care on this post. The crisis is over and progress is being made. I am moving on to other things now that this is taken care of. Thank you for all of the comments for me to sort through and assign the appropriate ones to this particular case.

OH, hello Richard, Yes, I understand about karma if that is indeed true. I am just now posting this and saw your post. Karma......I am very OK with what I had to do.

Thanks,
Best, COlette

Dr. Colette M. Dowell ND
Circular Times
www.robertschoch.net