Atlantis Above and Below (Part 3)

Kathrinn, et. al:

There is a very interesting article in the current issue (#89) of Atlantis Rising by Harry Sivertsen called "ATLANTIS & THE STARS: Maybe the Searchers Should Be Looking Up".

http://www.atlantisrising.com/index.shtml

Sivertsen proposes that Plato's reference to Atlantis being found beyond the pillars of Hercules" should be interpreted as "before the time when the pole star was in the constellation of Hercules", i.e., prior to the time in which the pole star was Tau Hercules. Sivertsen deduces that the ancients perceived time periods with a prominent pole star to be stable and conducive to advancing civilization.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Siver...
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Siver...

Sivertsen notes that the transition from Vega as pole star to Tau Hercules as pole star coincided with the massive global flooding associated with the end of the last ice age (and wiping out of the Atlanteans). The transition from Hercules to the next pole star was associated with renewed flooding and the connection was consequently imprinted upon the ancients. Sivertsen suggests that the idea of twin pillars derives from the twin earthly poles, i.e., the need for both northern and southern pole stars at any given time period to support global navigation (of an ancient global culture). Although there is probably no actual relationship between pole star ("pillar") toppling and flooding, it seems reasonable that the ancients would have drawn that conclusion.

Sivertsen also links the flood hero Manu of India and biblical Noah to the changing pole star. This is quite consistent with my own research, in which Noah emerges as not only an exceedingly wise figure, but a recurring figure that is renowned as a maniacal builder ala Solomon. In fact, I concluded that Noah and Solomon were identical types, and that every major dynasty included a leading Noah/Solomon figure. Recall that biblical Solomon's temple was also known for its two prominent "pillars".

A long period of "peace" (from heavenly upheavals, if not man-made ones) allowed civilization on earth to advance by way of ambitious (and generally "oppressive" building programs), and with "knowledge increased". However, it is followed eventually and inevitably by some kind of cataclsym and the undoing of mankind's achievements.

By the way, I don't think Sivertsen's theory necessarily detracts from a geographical interpretation of Plato's reference to Atlantis, it only complements it.

Atlantis Above and Below (Part 1)
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

Atlantis Above and Below (Part 2)
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

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Kathrinn's picture
Member since:
10 August 2004
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3 years 2 days

Just what I was saying before - pleased that someone else has a star-filled mind!

Tried to download the PDF from Atlantis Rising so I could read it, but first had to create an account. I evidently failed to fill in the "Login" box correctly, so that didn't work. Can you enlighten me as to what I should have put in there (I put my name). Maybe I can buy a copy from the newsagents and will have a look Thursday, but the PDF version would be more convenient and probably cheaper. Can't wait to read it.

Thanks for mentioning it Charles.

Regards, Kathrinn.

Charles Pope's picture
Member since:
23 October 2009
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6 hours 37 min

Hi Kathrinn!

I bought my copy at the bookstore, so I didn't try the PDF download. Perhaps there is a problem with site and they should be contacted?

The article was based on a book published a few years back by Sivertsen and a co-author, however the book seems to only be available now in very limited (and expensive) quantities.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Deluge-Genesis-A...

You mentioned in the previous threads that the constellation of Hercules does not have any prominent stars, so I was surprised that Sivertsen is so emphatic about Tau Hercules having been a pole star. We also discussed the possibility that Myth indicates this constellation had its eye(s) put out, that is, lost one or more prominent stars due to Super Novae. Have you given any further thought to that idea?

The other interesting thing about the article is an analogy made between the circular canals of Plato's Atlantis and the concentric paths of the northern stars around the pole star position. There is a diagram in the article showing the comparison. That also made good sense to me.

-Charles

Kathrinn's picture
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10 August 2004
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Hi Charles. Tau Hercules could well have been a pole star contender although it is of low magnitude today. This is not to say that this was always the case, however, and it may have suffered a supernova sometime in the past giving rise to the legend that Hercules had 'lost an eye'. Viewing the constellation's pattern, it would seem to me that Tau is more situated on one of Hercules' arms than in a position of being an eye, so maybe there was yet another star which has completely faded from view that was in a more suitable position at some time in the past.

My star atlas gives Tau as being magnitude 3.80, and the two shoulder stars Eta and Pi as having magnitudes of 3.53 and 3.16 respectively, both brighter than Tau but again not in suitable positions. I think it would be pretty impossible to discover if there was a supernova in the constellation so long ago as there are no records. The oldest are those from China and they don't go far enough back. That just leaves us with the myth, but then there is often more truth in a myth than receives credit.

Regarding the 'circular islands and canals' - yes - the variability of the axial tilt of the earth and the pole stars wandering on this 21 to 24 degree tilt spiral did occur to me. The actual degree of tilt could well represent the 'islands' and the areas of space between could well represent the 'canals'. I thought I'd mentioned this in one of my previous posts but haven't had time to check whether I did or not. I know I wrote about it in my as-yet-unfinished book that I have been working on for years and which may become finished if I live long enough!

It's probably not a mystery we will ever solve, but it is certainly a good area for speculation! Maybe all the various sites suggested for a terrestrial Atlantis are copycat designs based on Plato's original description. There certainly seem to be a lot of them, and maybe many peoples wanted their capital city to resemble something considered an ideal.

From descriptions I've read of the Phoenecian city of Byblos (now lost) it was an exact copy right down to the temple in the centre. It is also possible that as the Phoenecians sailed the Atlantic they were known as 'The Atlanteans' and it has just been presumed over time that they came from a place called Atlantis.

I'll have another try tonight to download that PDF file, as the newsagent just looked blankly at me today when I asked if they sold a magazine called Atlantis Rising, so I'm not going to find it in this town.

Thanks for re-introducing this topic. Best wishes, Kathrinn.

Charles Pope's picture
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23 October 2009
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6 hours 37 min

Hi Kathrinn,

Perhaps its not necessary to speculate a super nova event. Alpha Hercules ("Head of the Kneeler") is one of the brightest irregular variable stars and happens to be located on the head of the Hercules constellation. This star is also actually a binary (a red giant paired with a yellow-white dwarf), which makes the metaphor of two eyes more compelling. The brightness of alpha Hercules varies between a magnitude of 3 and 4 over a period of 90 days. However, the binary pair orbit one another in a cycle of 3,600 years, which might be of some interest to Sitchinites. The days of the red giant are perhaps numbered and prophetically speaking its light is destined to go out (relatively) sooner than later.

Interestingly enough, the Chinese call this star "The Crown of the Emperor", so they certainly attributed much significance to it.

In the Bible, the character of Moses begins life as as a Horus/Hercules figure, hidden away from his enemies in the marshes. However, at the end of his life, it is said that his "eye was not diminished". This is another association with the Horus/Hercules myth, however with a twist. Moses has evidently transcended the Horus/Hercules role. In fact, in the Book of Exodus Moses is better known as one that threatened to put out the eyes of others (i.e., his rivals). In Egyptian parlance, Moses has transitioned from Horus to Re.

So, I think we don't need to look upon the pole star Tau Hercules ("The Knee/Foot of the Kneeler") as a star in distress. What it lacks in brightness it makes up for in accuracy.

It's also odd that over time the whole constellation of Hercules tumbles like a giant swastika. The idea of falling is quite appropriate.

The Atlantean culture would have (at least initially) designed a city to replicate the pole star Vega and the stars that revolved around it at the end of the Ice Age. I suppose that with the demise of Vega (as pole star) they might have developed a new city based on the coming/expected dominance of the Hercules pole star. The fall of Atlantis is however dated by Plato to circa 9,500 BC (coinciding with the catastrophic end of the Younger Dryas period) and not 7,600 BC, which is a mis-match of about 2,000 years. Severtsen does not explain why a Hercules-centric city plan would have existed that far in advance of the high point.

Kathrinn's picture
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Hi Charles. Yes, I agree that Alpha Hercules is a better bet to fit the bill for a pole star candidate. However ....

Alpha Hercules (Rasalgethi) is nowhere near the polar circle, as it is located at the bottom of the constellation very close to Serpens Cauda and the top of Ophiuchus. In effect, Hercules is upside down so he is standing on his head. Having had another good look at the Star Atlas, I see that I was wrong about Tau being in one of Hercles' arms - it is in one of his legs. Although not all the pole stars lie in a direct line on a circle, most are very close - the closest, of course, being Polaris. There is no way the pole could slip so far south as to include Rasalgethi.

This means we're stuck with a (possibly) diminished Tau Hercules or a now invisible star that supernovaed. Then, again, maybe not, as the next-in-line pole star, Thuban in Draco, isn't a very bright star either, yet well noted in Egyptian times. Tau Hercules has a magnitude of 3.8, and Thuban 3.65, so it wouldn't have been much more visible to the naked eye.

Maybe the reference to Hercules 'missing eye' is just that it is so much harder to see than the very bright stars Vega and Acturus that form Hercules' "pillars". If there was any form of atmospheric obstruction, such as mist or thin cloud, it would appear to have 'gone missing' whereas the two brighter stars would still have been visible.

I'll keep digging!

Best regards, Kathrinn.

Charles Pope's picture
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23 October 2009
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6 hours 37 min

Kathrinn,

The blinding of Hercules is more clear from non-Greek sources actually. His Egyptian alter ego, Horus, had his eye injured in battle with Set/Seth, which was later restored through the healing powers of Hathor and Thoth. The wadjet eye is the so-called restored eye of Horus. As a "falcon god" the eye-sight of Horus must have been a critical element of his divine profile.

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/eye....
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/udjat.htm
http://www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/...

As the last link above implies, there was some confusion/conflation between the eye/eyes of Horus and of Re. The Biblical Moses is quite prominently depicted as the fallen sun god, however he begins his life in the Horus role, i.e., like Horus he was hidden in the bullrushes from Set/Seth.

The story of Odysseus and the Cyclops (Polyphemus, "much renowned") may be a variant of the story of a Horus (Judah) figure being blinded by a Set/Seth (Levi) figure:

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

We talked about the biblical account of Samson, who was blinded and forced to turn the (celestial) mill. The pillars that were brought down by celestial Samson, if corresponding to Hercules, would have been the pillars of the Age of Vega as pole star (corresponding to Ice Age Atlantis).

It may be significant that Samson himself is not at the center of the circle. Likewise, the head/eye of the constellation of Horus (Alpha Hercules) is offset from the pole star (Tau Hercules) in that constellation. It is probably also significant that the blinding event takes place prior to the constellation of Hercules becoming dominant (after the Great Flood ending the Younger Dryas Period).

Charles Pope's picture
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In thanks to TDG and our erstwhile grail blogger Kathrinn the Great, I'd like to post an epilogue to this thread.

Kathrinn and I kicked this topic around a little longer by email and finally concluded that there was no reason to doubt the obvious identification of Vega and Arcturus as the heavenly "Pillars of Hercules." However, when I was writing A Twisted History: Genesis and the Cosmos, it dawned on me that we had overlooked two glaring features of the Hercules Constellation, those being the oldest and the brightest globular star clusters in the northern sky of the Milky Way Galaxy, M92 and M13, respectively. These clusters are also found at an elevation that is highly suitable for pole stars.

http://earthsky.org/clusters-nebulae-gal...

I sent an email to Kathrinn early this year to get some feedback from her, but sadly got no reply. Hopefully Kathrinn is still alive and well and tending to her family, friends and garden in the countryside near Brisbane. She is a very private person and Kathrinn is just a pen name. In honor of her, I will try to bring some closure to this subject (while also being very much aware that this is only the beginning of an exciting field of study). Well done Kathrinn!!

What I'm now thinking is that the "Heavenly Atlantis" was not (necessarily or exclusively) beside Hercules in the constellation of Libra, but in the deep field of Hercules itself, which is precisely where M13 and M92 are located.

M13 and M92 are a key to understanding the violence and murder associated with Hercules in Myth. These are the most impressive star clusters in the Northern sky and consist of hundreds of thousands of stars each. They are however mostly the oldest of stars in the galaxy rather than metal rich younger generation stars. These clusters would have witnessed myriad supernovae explosions of intensely destructive power reaching all the way to adjacent regions of the sky, and "pushing outward" as the hero Samson did against the pillars (of Vega and Arcturus) until the entire "house" was brought down.

Hercules is specifically noted for horrifically killing his own children (as well as those of others) in a fit of madness. Whatever potential that the present day Constellation of Hercules initially had for intelligent life was wiped out. This promising region tragically "died young" as did Hercules (and his biblical counterparts Samson and Benjamin). And when it did, the catastrophe inflicted by M13 and M92 must have been a cosmic Deluge like few others in our maturing Milky Way home.

In the terrestrial enactment of the cosmic drama, Atlantis suffered a defeat by the Greeks prior to its sinking. Likewise, when the "hair" (dark matter?) of Samson was cut, he became weakened and vulnerable to outside attack by "uncircumcised Philistines" (i.e., Greek squatters in his territory). Samson was imprisoned and his "eyes" were put out. He began to recover some strength, but only for the purpose of taking a large number of Greek settlers down with him.

There certainly could have been much more recent bright stars and even bright pole stars in Hercules than those of M13 and M92. Regardless, the Myths appear to be telling us the larger (and older) cosmology (and perhaps even history) of the Constellation of Hercules.

Cass's picture
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18 November 2015
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My thanks to you and to kathrinn for all the information imparted via those many posts. I am sorry to have missed the opportunity to converse with her...

Did you ever draw a conclusion regarding Harakhty / Horus of the Horizons?

Charles Pope's picture
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23 October 2009
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Hi Cass, thanks for reviving interest in this topic!

There is obviously much more insight that can be teased out of the Myths now that we discern what the fundamental purpose of the Myths actually was, that is, to preserve/imprint cosmology on humanity.

What makes it more difficult is the layered/fractal-like ("Russian doll") aspect of the Myths, which is an outcome of capturing not only the cosmological "primal scene", but various echoes of it on vastly different scales of time and distance, from the galactic to the terrestrial, from otherworldly and alien to modern and human. Someone or something really does comprehend the "big picture" of life in this universe, or at least in the Milky Way, and tried to create a mnemonic system to tie it all together.

Harakhty is a whole other can of worms! The ancients seem to have used natural geological features on the horizon as ready-made "stonehenges" wherever available, such as a notch (akhet) of a mountain ridge. The related (?) root, akh, is also quite significant and has to do with a transformed being. Harakhty was one such mystical entity and had close associations with the Sphinx, as well:

http://www.domainofman.com/cgi-bin/bbs62...

Certainly the heart of the Constellation of Hercules figuratively died and needed to be "resurrected" as an Akh. But, I haven't put any more thought into whether Harakhty had anything to do with either the original or resuscitated Constellation of Hercules (Horus the Younger).

Hercules is of course not found in the Bible. The Hebrew equivalent is Benjamin, who was favored as a young prince, but died young. The tribe of Benjamin was small but had a strong royal identification. The tribe was nearly wiped out after a Benjamite committed an atrocity and his tribe defended him (instead of punishing him).

The birthright was supposed to transfer from Judah (Ursa Major, the Northernmost constellation) to Benjamin (constellation of Hercules), but ended up going to Joseph (constellation of Bootes) instead. There is obviously a cosmic significance to all of this role playing, and it deserves more study. It seems to indicate that intelligent life did take root somewhere in the constellation of Hercules after the volatility of M13 and M92 had subsided.

We can chase it a little further if there is an interest.