Köfels "Impact Event"

The Science Channel is re-airing the documentary on the Bond-Hempsell theory tonight at 9pm (EST).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,3436...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scien...
http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-li...

It is debatable whether this event, dated to 3123 BC, had anything to do with the Köfels landslide or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, however the date of 3123 BC is definitely significant, as it is associated with a world-wide climate catastrophe (and not merely the isolated scorching of a couple of towns).

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

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Charles Pope's picture
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Over half of the documentary was devoted to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is fascinating material, but really had no relevance to an event of 4th Century BC vintage. This is far too early for Abraham and Lot, whether one considers them historical figures or not. In fact, 3123 BC pre-dates Gilgamesh (even in the standard chronology).

One thing is relatively certain. Something very bad happened circa 3123 BC. Were Sumerian priests keeping all-night vigils over the night sky at that time? Intriguing question. The program stated that the observation would have been made in Southern Iraq (rather than in Ninevah where the tablet was found), presumably because the earliest Sumerian cities were in Southern Iraq.

I date the account of Abraham and Lot to the early Egyptian 18th Dynasty. The damning sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality (or lack of beduoin hospitality, as a talking head of the documentary concludes), but the failure of these cities to provide material aide to Abraham's allies in the preceding battles described in the Book of Genesis. As it is said (if not written), "paybacks are hell".

The conflagration of Sodom and Gomorrah was an entirely man-made judgment. However, the "fate" of these cities is also clearly typecast as a repetition of some far earlier event, which could have been a genuine natural disaster. That earlier event probably also involved two cities of much more significance than those targeted in Abraham's day (and perhaps even in an entirely different location). It could in fact have been the memory of leading cities destroyed in 3123 BC or as far back as 10,500 BC, i.e., part of the demise of infamously wicked Altantis culture.

Charles Pope's picture
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By the way, Zecharia Sitchin claimed in his 2007 book, "Journeys to the Mythical Past", that this same tablet depicts the route taken by Annunaki space craft when traveling to Earth!

http://www.amazon.com/Journeys-Mythical-...

Don't know about that one Zecharia, but this particular book by Sitchin does have a nice summary of the evidence for the Great Pyramid pre-dating the pharaohs, and much more detail about the alleged Howard Vyse forgery of Khufu's cartouche in the upper-most Relieving Chamber.

toxilogic's picture
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Hello Charles, the date rather corresponds with the start of the Mayan calender and if memory serves correct with the mythological forced exodus out of egypt by Thoth and his followers who were said to venture towards the (south/meso) america's. Makes dor an interesting tale doesnt it expelled and start of a new society with year zero after a cosmic impact.
Connecting the Sodom and Gomorrah destruction to an impact event is absurd as the chance of hitting the biggest land hole in the world by a comet is neigh zero, that said using a nuke there makes much more sense.

Charles Pope's picture
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Hey Toxi, totally agree. It would have made for a far more compelling story line (for the purpose of a documentary) to link the prospective impact to the founding of Meso-American culture (and with Thoth transforming into Quetzlcoatl or something like that) rather than the anachronistic demise of Sodom and Gomorrah. But, perhaps they were thinking that more viewers were interested in Biblical history rather than Mayan genesis!

... And in case you didn't know, Sitchin has a new book out called "There Were Giants Upon the Earth". I flipped through it at the bookstore and it seems to be just a recap/epitome of his Earth Chronicles series. The current issue (Sept/Oct 2010) of Atlantis Rising has an article by Zecharia Sitchin. For balance (?) it also places it side-by-side with a hit piece that was exerpted from Wikipedia!! For example, the Wikipedia entry criticizes Sitchin's definition of the word Apsu, but this criticism appears to be misinformed. As I recall Apsu could refer to a number of things, such as a subterranean feature (like underground rivers/waters), or the interior of the African Continent (south of Egypt), or the opposite (Meso-American) side of the planet. In general, Apsu seems to have indicated "below/under". In that sense, I don't see why it couldn't in some contexts refer to the lower solar system and even to the Sun. (I also disagree with Wikipedia that the god Nergal had to correspond to Mars and Marduk had to correspond to Jupiter. And of course it is not out of the question that Sumerians had knowledge of more than five planets!)

Whether one likes Sitchin's interpretation of Sumerian myth or not, it is now clear that Age Ending catastrophes have been occurring on Earth at intervals of 3,600 years (or even less), and that we are very much due for another "big one". Dendrology and Ice Core analysis prove this out, however the true implications of this data are largely being ignored by main stream science and archaeology.

epgrondine's picture
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What I'd really like to see, Charles, is a debate between you and Enigmi Freak on impacts.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

With all due respect for your work on raising awareness of impacts, I'd like to see you stop defending the fudging of major impacts in time so that the standard chronology can be defended (along with your pet theory about how Sargon the Great came to power)!

But, it really takes the fun out of getting in the ring and quibbling over words (like Apsu) when there's a "400 pound gorilla" (representing the next big impact event) ready to jump in and tear all us light-weights apart. And, E.P., it doesn't matter whether that event will happen in 2012 or not. It does matter that our current civiliation is for all practical purposes doomed. It's just isn't going to end well, and "the gods" really don't care about the mess. It doesn't help that most of humanity doesn't care either. We spend more money making movies about 2012 than actually figuring out what's going on around our solar system. (And, yes, I know you have been harping about that to everybody who will listen.)

I got no more quarrel with you or the Viet Cong or anything else no more. I got a quarrel that nothing about this King Kong Universe makes any darn sense. It's just plain stupid! Somebody's idea of a bad joke!! Who or what would create such a monstrosity? Would we believe that someone who regularly beats the crap out of their wife and children has a grand purpose and is basically a good and wise person? Well, that's what our cosmic environment does to all of us. We are lulled into a false security and then pulverized. Yet, most people think that God loves us and has it all under control. Hmmmm. O.K., maybe the Creator does have a plan, but we are obviously just guinea pigs in that experiment.

They say the first step to recovery is admitting there's a problem. But there doesn't seem to be any way to recover from the mine field that is our solar system. Maybe Stephen Hawking is right, reconciliation is no longer possible, we just need to find a way out of a bad marriage.

Damn, I've become a Neo-Gnostic!

-Charles

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

With all due respect for your work on raising awareness of impacts, I'd like to see you stop defending the fudging of major impacts in time so that the standard chronology can be defended (along with your pet theory about how Sargon the Great came to power)!

I never fudge impact dates. Impacts are a powerful tool for chronological work. When I've made mistakes, and I have made more than a few, I correct them immediately once I know better.

Charles Pope wrote:

But, it really takes the fun out of getting in the ring and quibbling over words (like Apsu) when there's a "400 pound gorilla" (representing the next big impact event) ready to jump in and tear all us light-weights apart. And, E.P., it doesn't matter whether that event will happen in 2012 or not. It does matter that our current civiliation is for all practical purposes doomed.

Actually, Charles, mankind has the technology to handle this problem, at any size; it's simply a question of finding these
things and then diverting/destroying them when needed.

Charles Pope wrote:

It's just isn't going to end well, and "the gods" really don't care about the mess. It doesn't help that most of humanity doesn't care either. We spend more money making movies about 2012 than actually figuring out what's going on around our solar system. (And, yes, I know you have been harping about that to everybody who will listen.)

Thanks. I have done my bit to raise public awareness.

Charles Pope wrote:

I got no more quarrel with you or the Viet Cong or anything else no more. I got a quarrel that nothing about this King Kong Universe makes any darn sense. It's just plain stupid! Somebody's idea of a bad joke!! Who or what would create such a monstrosity? Would we believe that someone who regularly beats the crap out of their wife and children has a grand purpose and is basically a good and wise person? Well, that's what our cosmic environment does to all of us. We are lulled into a false security and then pulverized. Yet, most people think that God loves us and has it all under control. Hmmmm. O.K., maybe the Creator does have a plan, but we are obviously just guinea pigs in that experiment.

They say the first step to recovery is admitting there's a problem. But there doesn't seem to be any way to recover from the mine field that is our solar system. Maybe Stephen Hawking is right, reconciliation is no longer possible, we just need to find a way out of a bad marriage.

Damn, I've become a Neo-Gnostic!

-Charles

Obviously your faith has been shaken by the realization of impact events, as has EF's, though your faiths differ. Hence the biblical aspects of your work, and the theosophist aspects of his.

When I first started on this in 1997, the realization that any person, everyone they knew or loved, and everything they did could be blown off the face of the Earth without a minutes warning was profoundly moving, and at the time I was pretty much alone, with only a few remote colleagues.

I already knew the dinosaurs had bought it; it was simply realizing that these things hit a lot more often than most people suspect.

I simply viewed it as a problem to be worked, and did so. My work has to be exactly right to convince others, a self imposed degree of precision that all serious scientists working in this field feel constantly.

I am not a spiritual guide; I rely on others for that. But I do know that theosophism is inherently racist and amoral, and I used to know the chronology of the ancient Near East quite precisely.

Thanks for sharing this with me. I hope you find your path. In the meantime, may I suggest looking at the solutions to the problem?

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

So you now agree that the Al'amarah/Umm al Binni crater (that wiped out Mesopotamia) was part of a cluster of impacts in the late 3rd Century BC and was close in time (if not simultaneous) with the Rio Cuarto event in Argentina (as originally concluded by "Team Benny")?? Or do you still want to move Umm al Binni back to the early 3rd Century in order to save the Academic chronology?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/744...
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0417...
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/floo...

I disagree that we have the capability to stop the "5th Sun" or the "4th Age" (or however you want to reckon it) from coming to a cataclysmic end. We are having an interesting discussion about this over at Andy Lloyd's Dark Star site right now:

http://groups.google.com/group/dark-star...
http://groups.google.com/group/dark-star...

Something much more wicked than the stray asteroid (if that weren't bad enough) is responsible for these "Age Ending" events. We don't even yet understand what is going on in our own solar system, much less know what to do about it. Well, maybe a few people do, but they're not telling the rest of us.

It was clearly known in ancient times that there were many other bodies of interest in the solar system beyond the visible planets. Kings and priests did not make that knowledge public, but it is very strongly encoded in ancient accounts meant for public consumption, e.g., the story of Jacob ("the Sun") and his 12 Sons ("Planets).

Ancient kings did not believe it was possible to stop the periodic decimation of mankind. On the contrary, they depended on it to help them maintain their primitive authority. Kings considered it their duty and privilege to simply "occupy" the Earth from one "visitation of the gods" (i.e., "Return" of our Nemesis) to the next. Ancient kingly culture was essentially anti-innovation, anti-progress, anti-development. Our Earth, as beautiful as it may appear on a good day, is not suited for advanced, sustainable civilization, at least not on any large scale. Our solar system is too violent to allow it. We suffer too many acute traumas. Earth may be of interest to aliens for exploration and exploitation (and perhaps even excellent entertainment value for their tourist dollar!). Regardless, we are definitely NOT in control of our own destiny.

Eat, drink, and love physics my friends, for tomorrow we're all gonna be off'd with extreme prejudice!

-The Die Hard Deist

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

So you now agree that the Al'amarah/Umm al Binni crater (that wiped out Mesopotamia) was part of a cluster of impacts in the late 3rd Century BC and was close in time (if not simultaneous) with the Rio Cuarto event in Argentina (as originally concluded by "Team Benny")?? Or do you still want to move Umm al Binni back to the early 3rd Century in order to save the Academic chronology?

Hi Charles -

No one knows for certain when Umm al Binni was hit, as no geologists have been into look at it yet - it's in Iraq. There are competent Moslem geologists who are able to do the work, but there has been no funding - perhaps Saudi Arabia's new impact institute may pick up the tab for field work there - I think the heat would be fatal to me now -

My guess, and this is just a guess, is that the umm al binni impact cleared the area and led to the Sumerian entry into the area, coming from India - whoever was around the Umm al Binni impact was killed, given its size, and while we have records of other later impacts, for umm al binni... we just have those I mentioned.

Since my stroke, I can no longer do either Near Eastern or Biblical archaeology, and all I can do is point you back to my earlier work.

Charles Pope wrote:

I disagree that we have the capability to stop the "5th Sun" or the "4th Age" (or however you want to reckon it) from coming to a cataclysmic end. We are having an interesting discussion about this over at Andy Lloyd's Dark Star site right now:

http://groups.google.com/group/dark-star...
http://groups.google.com/group/dark-star...

Something much more wicked than the stray asteroid (if that weren't bad enough) is responsible for these "Age Ending" events. We don't even yet understand what is going on in our own solar system, much less know what to do about it. Well, maybe a few people do, but they're not telling the rest of us.

Yes we are, but you are not listening. NASA's WISE infra-red space telescope has definitively ruled out any near companion like Niburu or Nemesis - if it had of been anywhere out there, WISE would have found it. It didn't.

Charles Pope wrote:

It was clearly known in ancient times that there were many other bodies of interest in the solar system beyond the visible planets. Kings and priests did not make that knowledge public, but it is very strongly encoded in ancient accounts meant for public consumption, e.g., the story of Jacob ("the Sun") and his 12 Sons ("Planets).

Ancient kings did not believe it was possible to stop the periodic decimation of mankind. On the contrary, they depended on it to help them maintain their primitive authority. Kings considered it their duty and privilege to simply "occupy" the Earth from one "visitation of the gods" (i.e., "Return" of our Nemesis) to the next. Ancient kingly culture was essentially anti-innovation, anti-progress, anti-development. Our Earth, as beautiful as it may appear on a good day, is not suited for advanced, sustainable civilization, at least not on any large scale. Our solar system is too violent to allow it. We suffer too many acute traumas. Earth may be of interest to aliens for exploration and exploitation (and perhaps even excellent entertainment value for their tourist dollar!). Regardless, we are definitely NOT in control of our own destiny.

Eat, drink, and love physics my friends, for tomorrow we're all gonna be off'd with extreme prejudice!

-The Die Hard Deist

No question kings used these impact events to keep their subjects in control through the use of magical thinking.

I like your thought on being entertainment for aliens, and have written some sf on it. Have you ever considered that dealing with the impact hazard may be the ultimate intelligence test for mankind? In other words, either we do it and are let into the ET club, or we don't and are allowed to perish as not being suitable for membership? In other words, all ET have already passed this test.

I hope you find a way to reconcile your beliefs with reality as you perceive it, and that you find some kind of spiritual peace.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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The anniversary of 9/11 (today) was not a good day to be optimistic about the future of mankind! Will try again tomorrow.

The reports I have seen say that WISE will take at least a couple of years to scan the full sky. Maybe we will have "peace and safety" in our time, as ol' Hezekiah consoled himself. But, according to the Book of Revelation, our sweet slayer will come in the guise of a beautiful planet "clothed with the sun" and with a devilish dragon "chasing" her from behind. Michael, the angelic guise of Judah, i.e., the fourth son/planet (Mars) engages this "dragon" with his helpers (the Asteroids?) but only succeeds in casting debris onto Earth. Good job Michael.

If WISE does spot this once and future interloper, do you really think we can neutralize it? A New World order is supposed to emerge from the ashes (according to the Revelator), but few if any of us will live to walk those promised streets of gold.

-Chucky of Patmos

epgrondine's picture
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Hi Chuck -

WISE has completed its first scan, and is mid-way through its second scan. No Niburu, No Nemesis.

We can handle the comets and asteroids with our current technology.
Its simply getting NASA focused on it, and stopping Thiokol from wasting billions of our money on the Ares 1 rocket, a real dog.
If you're not in the US, find out what your country is doing, and write your elected officials supporting the work.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

I applaud your determination, but exactly how are we able to deal even with a large comet that comes through and significantly disrupts large numbers of asteroids? Has anyone done an analysis of the entropy of asteroids to calculate if it is higher than would be expected (and indicates a periodic perturber)?

Revelation's "woman clothed with the sun" may be merely a reference to Venus ("Isis mother of Horus/Christ") in its transit across the face of the sun. But why would that in itself be cause of "Great Tribulation"? It's probably only an incidental "sign" (marker) with the actual culprit being some other cyclical phenomenon. Until we figure out what that anomaly is, I don't have a lot of confidence that we can "handle it". The ancient sources are fairly emphatic - it's an absolutely devastating S.O.B.. And it seems to be the reason why civilization on Earth has not progressed beyond Monday Night Football after billions of years.

Also, with respect to Umm al Binni crater, the Academics have already moved it back in time (relative to its original estimated date) before a proper study has been made. So, what does that tell you? Somebody needs to call them out for this obvious (and very unprofessional/unscientific) bias.

-Doubting Chucky

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

I applaud your determination, but exactly how are we able to deal even with a large comet that comes through and significantly disrupts large numbers of asteroids? Has anyone done an analysis of the entropy of asteroids to calculate if it is higher than would be expected (and indicates a periodic perturber)?

Yes, this has been looked at in depth. There is a periodic pertuber, the passage of our Solar System through the plane of our galaxy, the Milky Way. That's the only perturber we know of.

Besides comets, there are collisions between asteroids. These are being worked on now. But once again, we candle handle this with current technology. It's merely a question of finding them well before they hit.

Charles Pope]

[quote=Charles Pope

wrote:

I don't have a lot of confidence that we can "handle it". The ancient sources are fairly emphatic - it's an absolutely devastating S.O.B.. And it seems to be the reason why civilization on Earth has not progressed beyond Monday Night Football after billions of years.

It's "them", Charles, not "it". They are absolutely devastating SOB's.

Charles Pope wrote:

Also, with respect to Umm al Binni crater, the Academics have already moved it back in time (relative to its original estimated date) before a proper study has been made. So, what does that tell you? Somebody needs to call them out for this obvious (and very unprofessional/unscientific) bias.

-Doubting Chucky

There have been archaeological investigations all around umm al binni. When whatever hit there hit, it killed all life around for many miles. Thus we can rule out a fairly recent date, say around 3,000-2,000 BCE.

Charles, I have a lot of people to communicate with, and I hope you will not think it rude if I can not spare more time for you yourself personally. It is still difficult for me to type: I use one finger on my left hand. I hope you can understand this.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

Maybe the horrors that accompanied the end of the last Ice Age are finally over. The comet strike of 13,865 BC returned at regular intervals in 10,700 BC, 7,553 BC and 4400 BC, but seems to have played out. Another comet with a period of around 666 years seems to have started plaguing the Earth around 3100 BC and it may not have played out completely until around 450 AD. It has been fairly quiet since then.

The Book of Revelation should have been called "God's Greatest Hits". It seems to roll up all of the various nasty special effects from outer space into one Hollywood-esque story. The element of Satan/Lucifer being bound for 1,000 years must have been borrowed from the Younger Dryas event. The sun had become too menacing and had to be "bound" for awhile. The Earth returned to Ice Age conditions for a little over 1,000 years before a devastating Flood took place around 9,600 BC and the world began to warm up for good. According to the Book of Genesis, God promised not to do this to us again, and a flood of that magnitude really wasn't possible again without all of the ice sheets.

The Book of Revelation was designed to scare the bejesus out of everyone and it still does! The terrors it describes have happened and still could happen again, probably not all at once, but nonetheless potentially devastating to a society that is so dependent on delicate technology. If there is a way for us to set up a galactic neighborhood watch, we definitely should!

earthling's picture
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Quote:

...place around 9,600 BC and the world began to warm up for good.

You just wait a few hundred years, it will get damn cold again, bible or no bible.

----
We are the cat.

Charles Pope's picture
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God didn't promise not to freeze us or fry us, just not flood us!

Reminds me of a Monty Python hymm. It's at the end of this video clip:

See video

I'm sure there is a loophole in case flooding returns to favor as a instrument of God's wrath upon us ingrates.

Do you think a return to Ice Age conditions will be as traumatic as the end of the Ice Age?

Things seemed to be going pretty well right before the fire and flood that wrecked Atlantean culture.

earthling's picture
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You wrote that it warmed up for good. That eliminates freezing, that's not a technicality, so don't deny what you said.

----
We are the cat.

Charles Pope's picture
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And technically I suppose it didn't literally warm up for good, but mostly for very, very bad.

The promise to never destroy the world again by a flood reminds me of another promise in the Bible to Phinehas of an "everlasting priesthood", which was voided almost immediately (by the next king who took up the role of playing God).

Here's the lyrics to the Monty Python hymm on the video, in case you want to sing along!

Oh, Lord, Please Don't Burn Us

Oh Lord please don't burn us
don't kill or toast your flock
Don't put us on the barbecue
or simmer us in stock,
Don't bake or baste or boil us
or stir-fry us in a wok.

Oh, please don't lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don't fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat"

--Composed by Eric Idle and John Du Prez, authored by Graham Chapman and John Cleese
http://www.nobeliefs.com/creativePrayer.htm
(Some other hilarious prayers at this site too.)

earthling's picture
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I didn't disagree with God, I disagreed with you.

And on those points where I do disagree with God, that's between myself and Him :)

----
We are the cat.

dwb1957's picture
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Some people will believe anything. It's sad really.

emlong's picture
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And some people will not believe in anything - equally sad.

Charles Pope's picture
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It really must be that the "Controllers" (and I use that terms loosely) were expecting a cataclysm around 2012, and that is why they so clearly tipped their hand (with 9-11 and the Wall Street Bailout) in a preemptive move to lock down America prior to the anticipated "Event." However, like EP Grondine, they believed in the Academic chronology that makes our 2012 one and the same as the End of the Mayan Calendar! However, even now that the cat is out of the bag, Americans still do not believe that conspiracies are real and continue to blindly follow their (not so) hidden masters. The recent elections indicate that all resistance is now futile. So, "Trust and obey, for there's no other Way."

By the way, I also came across an interesting quote by Elaine Pagels in her contribution to the 2012 literature, "Revelations: Visions, Prophesy, & Politics in the Book of Revelation." In this book she goes into the massive conspiracies that occurred when Christianity was legalized by Constantine. Here's the quote:

"The Book of Revelation reads as if John had wrapped up all our worst fears - fears of violence, plague, wild animals, unimaginable horrors emerging from the abyss below the earth, lightning, thunder, hail, earthquakes, erupting volcanoes, and the atrocities of torture and war - into one gigantic nightmare."

This is what I referred to as "God's Greatest Hits" in one of the posts in this thread above.