Atlantis Above and Below

Kathrinn,

Would you please, please expand upon your recent post -

"Atlantises seem to be everywhere - except in one place no-one seems to have so far considered!

"Try looking west of the two bright stars known as "The Pillars of Hercules". There among the zodiacal stars sits Libra, basically composed of 3 stars . When it sinks below the horizon it unfailingly "goes down in three parts". A-Talenta is a balance - what a surprise!

"It also happens to be where Gliese 581 is situated - the red star around which may have been found the first habitable planet known to us other than earth. Well, well!"

I think this is such an amazing insight! Wasn't it at the End of the Age of Libra that Atlantis, which was beyond (west) of the Pillars of Hercules, "sank into the sea"?

Note:

This discussion led to two further threads -

Atlantis Above and Below, Part 2
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

Atlantis Above and Below, Part 3
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

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Kathrinn's picture
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Thank you for your interest in my idea!

I didn't know that anyone had actually put a date to the sinking of Atlantis (which I have always believed was not a real physical place on this planet), but your suggetion seems to fit a general time period when this might have happened.

I will do some work with my starchart programme, scrolling back in time, and see if I can come up with a date that we could look at as a possibility - just give me a few days.

Where did your information come from? I don't remember it being something Plato ever mentioned, and due to my disbelief in a real Atlantis-as-a-place I don't usually pay attention to the bs that's been added to the story along the way!

This is exciting - I'm pleased I mentioned my idea and will follow up to see if further facts might offer confirmation.

To pick the end of an Age for an event of significance would be more sensible that stating a specific date as calendars have been more in the nature of colanders for millennia!

Best wishes, Kathrinn

Charles Pope's picture
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Kathrinn, I was only noting that the Age of Libra was closing around the time so many catastrophes struck and signalled the beginning of the end of the last Ice Age.

Thanks for looking further into this. I agree that this is potentially a very powerful 'message in the sky'.

If you want to start your own blog on this please do, and I'll delete this one.

Kathrinn's picture
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Charles, there's no reason for me to start another blog on this - the one we have now will do just fine.

Yes, the Age of Libra was just ending at a time when catastrophes seem to have overwhelmed what I believe was a previous sophisticated global civilisation. What these catastrophes were I'm not sure (but others might be able to provide these answers). I just want to check on the star patterns more before I answer and I can't see me being able to get around to that until early next week as I have several commitments to finish off first.

More later and again thanks for your interest in what might simply be my somewhat whacky idea!

Regards, Kathrinn

Charles Pope's picture
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Kathrinn,

No hurry. I'm enjoying thinking about it. Here's what I've come up with so far.

Didn't see much on the web about two stars called "The Pillars of Hercules". Are they in Scorpius/Scorpio? That would make sense as a "segway" from the Age of Scorpio to Libra. There are of course two main "pillars" (globular clusters M13 & M92) in the actual constellation of Hercules. They could be perceived as providing a portal to Libra. Nowdays it would be around August in the Northern Hemisphere and six months later in the Southern. But, maybe it was a little different 15,000 years ago.

Some seam to think the pillars of Hercules are associated with Cygnus and/or the Galactic Rift. That also makes a lot of sense to me in that the legs of the rift can be thought of as really giant pillars as well, and Libra is situated in front of the opening/passageway.

Two pillars, especially when tied together as a pylon, can be considered two branches of descent. The two famous pillars of Solomon, Joachim and Boaz, are suggestive of two kingly lines of inheritance (one from a John figure, Joktin, and the other from Joshua), which instead of competing with one another were joined to create a stronger dynastic structure. In the New Testament they are reflected by the complementary lines of John the Baptist and Jesus.

Another biblical analog is that of Jacob and his 12 sons. Jacob represents the Sun and its motion through the 12 signs of the zodiac. Dan (a.k.a. Adam) is Scorpio (Atum). Naphtali (a.k.a. Eve) is Libra (Hathor). Zebulun (a.k.a. Naamah) is Virgo (Isis). Judah (a.k.a. Mehushael) is Leo (Horus the Elder). Asher (a.k.a. El) is Cancer (Shu). Simeon (a.k.a. Lamech) is Gemini (Thoth). Gad (a.k.a. Cain) is Taurus (On/Anu). Benjamin (a.k.a. Ham) is Aries (Horus the Younger). Joseph (a.k.a. Enoch) is Pisces (Ptah/Enki). Issachar (a.k.a. Mehujael) is Aquarius (Osiris). Levi (a.k.a. Seth killer/successor of Osiris) is Capricorn (Set). Reuben "the eldest son' is Saggitarius (Geb/Seb 'the heir'). And then the cycle repeats.

There are some interesting pairings and sequences, such as Scorpio (Atum) being followed by Libra (Hathor), and Libra followed by Virgo (as Isis succeeds Hathor as Matriarch). The Age of Atlantis was perhaps one of a strong female rule or influence, but was that a deliberate patterning after civilization in Libra, such as Gliese? Hmmm.

The name Naphtali is defined as "my wrestling" and reflects Libra/Atalanta quite well. Naphtali is also called a doe, which is known for its swift and graceful running ala Atalanta.

As far as the Age of Libra (circa 14,773 - 12,787 BC), it was associated with a baptism by fire around 13,865 BC. A baptism by ice (flash-freeze resulting in a 1,000+ year return to the Ice Age) around 10,700 BC and a baptism by water around 9,600 BC followed.

It seems highly coincidental that the feminine culture of Atlantis was brought down by such devastating natural catastrophes, however a tradition of blaming disaster on female rule appears to be a legacy (and justification for male dominance in later times).

VenomFangX's picture
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Is it possible that Atlantis was an emotional place rather than an advanced civilisation some 14 000 years ago when the Earth was gripped in a warmer period. Within this warmer period was a much colder period called the "Younger Dryas". I am not dissing your post as it is excellent but I wonder if all beautiful things like love reside in the hearts of people and have the potential to exist..one day..not in the past but in the future..perhaps.
Perhaps an interesting point to discuss sometime over a vodka or ten.
VFX

The greatest risk is not to risk at all

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I don't think one can discuss the subject of Atlantis without including some of the esoteric and Theophical writings on the subject. In the Secret Doctrine of Blavatsky it is said that the first sinking of Atlantis was not 9000 years ago but 900,000 years ago - Plato was an Initiate and he would never have revealed that original figure - his lesser figure corresponded to the last sinking of Atlantis ( the last remnants).

"It is the submersion of the great Atlantis which is the most interesting. It is of this cataclysm that the old records (See the “Book of Enoch”) say that “the ends of the Earth got loose; and upon which the legends and allegories of Vaivasvata, Xisuthrus, Noah, Deukalion and all the tutti quanti of the Elect saved, have been built. Tradition, taking into no account the difference between sidereal and geological phenomena, calls both indifferently “deluges.” Yet there is a great difference. The cataclysm which destroyed the huge continent of which Australia is the largest relic, was due to a series of subterranean convulsions and the breaking asunder of the ocean floors. That which put an end to its successor—the fourth continent—was brought on by successive disturbances in the axial rotation. It began during the earliest tertiary periods, and, continuing for long ages, carried away successively the last vestige of Atlantis, with the exception, perhaps, of Ceylon and a small portion of what is now Africa. It changed the face of the globe, and no memory of its flourishing continents and isles, of its civilizations and sciences, remained in the annals of history, save in the Sacred records of the East."

The stanza I have quoted about gives the reason for the sinking of Atlantis as being "disturbances in axial rotation". The Stanza also mentions the destruction of the Continent in the Pacific that is known as Lemuria, prior to Atlantis - that was destroyed by "subterranean convulsions." I shall come back to that.

Science disputes all of this natually but it's also interesting how science catches up - in scientific circles it is written that the last time the Earth had a serious axial disturbance was about 700,000 years ago - rather close to that 900,000 years figure. As for subterranean convulsions - well these Theosophical writings were first published in 1888 - the volcanoes in the Pacific known as the "ring of fire" were first discovered in the 1960s - could they not be considered to be the reason for subterranean convulsions? An expedition in the Pacific a few years ago drilled 6000 feet below the ocean bed and from the evidence recovered managed to prove that the oceanbed had at some point been above water.

http://www.blavatsky.net/science/atlanti...

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread....

Charles Pope's picture
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Sitchin also concluded from Sumerian sources that the "creation of mankind" to do the work of "the gods" took place at least several hundred thousand years ago. I don't have any problem with human memory extending over many, many precessional cycles. And most definitely the sinking of Atlantis around 9600 BC could have been perceived as a repetition of some far earlier (and even larger) land submersion. Yes, this is exactly how the ancients looked at things.

The end of the last Ice Age just happened to take place during two of the feminine signs of the zodiac, Libra and Virgo. By the way, the insistence of Atalanta on preserving her status as a virgin is curious. She seems to have been a proto-typical "Virgin Queen" and "God's Wife". However, we now know that neither Queen Elizabeth nor any God's Wife of Egypt had literally remained virgins. They had children, but were not limited by marriage or only one sexual/reproductive partner. Yet, they were also beyond any reproach for this "liberated" practice.

Going back one complete precessional cycle would bring us to the previous Age of Libra around 39,000 BC. Interestingly enough, there is a new Atlantis speculation book out called Ancient Egypt 39,000 BCE: The History, Technology, and Philosophy of Civilization X, by Edward Malkowski. I picked it up at my local Borders bookstore. It's kind of a collection of that author's favorite alternative history theories, such Davidovits, Bernal, Burke & Halberg, Dunn, Firestone, LaViolette, and so forth. For philosophy he leans on Schwaller de Lubicz. The new element is publication of a theory by John Cadman concerning the Great Pyramid as a resonating water pump for large-scale irrigation of the renowned "Land of Goshen". There is at least a logical motivation for such an invention in that by 2500 BC Egypt was rapidly turning to desert. (Only a short time later the planet was rocked by devastating impact events circa 2300-2400 BC.) However, Malkowski argues in favor of a literal interpretation of the Turin Papyrus, which indicates that civilization in Egypt began as early as 39,620 BC, hence his book title, and that the Great Pyramid could have been constructed at any time after 39,620 BC.

We now know that the Sahara shrinks and expands according to the precessional cycle (and other factors), so we might expect that something similar was going on in Egypt in terms of climate (if not also impact events) during both Ages of Libra, although the Ice Age was of course still in full-force back in 39,000 BC).

red pill junkie's picture
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I'm a Libra too. Maybe I should change my handle to Red Pillar Junkie ;)

The idea of linking the Atlantis myth with a celestial event is really intriguing and fascinating.

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie
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red pill junkie's picture
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Ix-nay on the phism-nay!!! There are those amongst us for whom Teosophism is like the color red for a bull ;)

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie
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Charles Pope's picture
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Red Pill(ar) Junkie,

Yes, I saw you gave Kathrinn props when she made the initial post.

"Pleased to meet you, I hope you guessed my sign!" Actually I'm an Aries, the sign of Lucifer right?. I was trying to convey something slighty different with the message title, as from one Age of Libra to the next).

Also trying to avoid any -phism schisms. I'll read just about anything. I have "Egypt: Child of Atlantis" by John Gordon, who claims to be a *phist. I thought there were some very good insights in the book although I can't vouch for all of the material (or for *phisters, templars, shakers, quakers, etc. in general).

During the Age of Libra, Egypt should have been getting warmer if not yet wetter. I'm not exactly sure when the climate specialists think the Sahara "went green". During much of the time between 9600 BC and 2500 BC, the problem would have been getting rid of excess water rather than needing a monolithic water pump for irrigation. So, the traditional date of 2500 BC for the Great Pyramid still seems the most probable. (I'm still open to other solutions.) In my view though, the date of the 1st pharaonic dynasty needs to be moved forward in time, and considerably so.

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Discerning whether Libra can be allied to Atlantis has required some speculation, so nothing that follows is set in stone, so to speak. I’m not claiming anything to be a ‘fact’, merely a possibility, and I have had to make several assumptions to even come up with some possibilities.

Firstly I should have been a bit clearer about the Pillars of Hercules. The stars are usually accepted to be Vega (in Lyra) and Arcturus (in Bootes) – bright stars each side of Hercules’ rather dim constellation. (The temple pillars in Jerusalem were used as shadow markers to show the winter and summer solstice days at the latitude of Jerusalem.).

So, strictly speaking, one should move south of the Pillars of Hercules to Libra. This points us to the sun which in the northern hemisphere travels across the southern part of the sky. I chose to look at the Vernal Equinox as one of my arbitrary markers as it heralds the glory days of summer even though the sun really began its return north from its death and subsequent resurrection in the lands of the Southern Cross at the winter solstice.

Since the story of Atlantis sinking claims it happened in a single night, here is the explanation for this supposed continent lying WEST of the Pillars of Hercules. One must look on the western horizon to find if Libra obliged by ‘going down in three parts’, and this would have to be after sunset for the stars to be visible. The horizon was the Ancients’ boundary between ‘land’ to the north and ‘sea’ to the south.

Next problem was from what point did the Babylonians start in their allotment of 30 equal degrees to each zodiac segment – some of the constellations are larger and some much smaller. By their division, each segment was designated by the constellation that fell, or partly fell, into that segment – they were not necessarily exact.

I chose to begin from year Zero as the start of Pisces (end of Aries) progressing backwards in blocks of 2160 years as being the equal divisons of an Age in the Great Precessional Year. (For those who do not know, the sun regresses through the zodiac signs in its great circle).

Next problem was a viewing point. Who was around charting the stars so long ago? A viewing location is important as what is visible to a person in one place may not be so in another place. Ultimately I settled on Cairo. Not only central, but peoples were in that area predating the Egyptians. It would appear that the Nubians first delineated the zodiac, choosing the signs to correspond to their current seasons, and whoever lived at Nabta were adept astronomers.

By calculation from Pisces and year Zero, this put the Age of Libra starting in 15,120 BCE and ending in 12,960 BCE. This subsequently turned out to be a reasonable estimate although at the Vernal Equinox on June 22 in 12,960 Libra did not oblige by ‘going down in three parts’ as the two lower and parallel stars sank together.

After much fiddling with the star chart I found that if this date was amended to 12,490 all was well with the three stars following one another into the ‘sea’ one hour after sunset. This is not far off my original calculation and although the year may vary a bit either side, I’m reasonably happy with it, as there may well be some minor inaccuracies in the star chart programme, and/or I picked the zodiac divisions wrongly.

Thus the Age of Libra would have run from 14,650 to 12,490 BCE. On the Vernal Equinox on July 10 in 12,490 the rising sun was preceded firstly by Mercury then Venus – a celestial event the Ancients always viewed as auspicious.

So what great event occurred in 12,490 BCE that inspired our ancient astronomers to mark the date for anybody’s future calendar by referencing it to the stars? This was something that has often been the case in other stories such as Noah’s flood and the culmination of Orion.

Perhaps it was simply the marking of the end of an Age, although the story of the demise of Atlantis would seem to indicate something much more sudden and dramatic. Other Ages have come and gone without star referencing although, at a later date, Moses lost his temper with his followers who refused to stop worshipping the golden calf of Taurus after the sun had moved into Aries.

It seems to me that noting the sudden upsetting of the starry balance would indicate a corresponding sudden upsetting of a terrestrial balance; something sufficiently momentous that an indicator in the form of a dramatic story was left on which we could ponder. Stories carry through the ages whereas dates do not due to calendrical variations. Celestial happenings in story form can be fixed in anyone’s calendar however far in the future those people may live.

Unless we can discover what this event really was, we cannot know if it was geographical, political or societal, or maybe our planet was whacked by a large lump of space rock causing severe global or regional catastrophes. What that might have been I don’t know! Any hypotheses or hard facts that anyone else can provide would be very interesting.

Regards, Kathrinn

Charles Pope's picture
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Hi kathrinn,

It makes perfect sense that the constellation of Hercules would have pillars/gates on either side of it. It recalls the epithet of Hercules/Horus the Younger in Egypt, Horemakhet. There were supposedly two sets of pillars of Hercules, one in the east and one in the west.

Samson, a biblical type of Hercules, was also placed between two pillars, which he pulled down, and the entire temple of Dagon with them. The parallels between Samson and Hercules have been made elsewhere, however I would point out that Samson is said to have come from the tribe of Dan (Adam/Scorpio). Although Samson/Horus the Younger has a zodiacal sign of his own, namely Aries, the presence.of the constellation of Hercules in Scorpio identfies him as a new or second Adam. Tearing down pillars symbolizes tearing down dynasties. Horus the Younger sacrificed his own dynastic line, however established that of his natural father Horus the Elder (Judah/Mehushael/Horus the Elder/Leo).

The dynasty that Horus the Younger/Ham/Hercules took down with him was that of Hathor by another partner. The struggle between rival sons of Hathor is captured by the biblical account of Cain and Abel. Cain is the true son of Adam. Abel is passed off as a younger son, but his real father is "the Lord", i.e., a more dominant male.

In terms of the zodiac, Eve/Libra/Naphtali can be seen as originating from "the side" of Adam/Scorpio/Dan. As the grinding wheel of the sun turns, she does not remain subordinate any longer. Her offspring, the Nephalim/Titans, by "the Lord" give her superior stats to Adam and his line. However, with the Flood, the mighty are fallen and the line of Adam through Mehushael/Horus the Elder becomes the dominant one. This scenario seems to have been played out over and over. Surely it must reflect some heavenly war for supremacy in the Galactic neighborhood, either in terms of natural events (super novae and the like) or alien civilizations or both.

I had tinkered with the mapping of zodiacal signs and biblical Patriarchs/Tribes awhile back, however your link between Libra and Atlantis has really brought into sharp focus. The Greeks were accused of having no history of their own, however their mythology is perhaps the richest in the world. It must be another link back to Atlantis, the empire they were said to have defeated, but which emerges as only the center of a global network of subordinate kingdoms that included proto-Greece and proto-Egypt.

I will post more on this later! Let me know if this is resonating with you at all. Unfortunately this blog has been relegated to the peanut gallery. But maybe Greg would not mind bumping it back up to a feature?

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Your comment is interesting and I'll do some thinking about it. However, dynasties and such are not really in my sphere of knowledge - I deal more in the nuts-and-bolts stuff of star patterns and their link to ancient myths and stories. I hope you found the information on Libra of some value in your research as it is obviously something (your research, that is) into which you have put much time.

I would be very interested if someone else could suggest what may have happened on the planet around 12,490 BCE that caused the Ancients to place a star-marker on it for future peoples to think about.

There may be some connection between Plato's description of the actual city of Atlantis and the old Phoenecian city of Byblos. Part of the city has been described almost identically - the fortified circular, man-made island land areas enclosing canals and linked to the mainland part of the city by an easily defended causeway. The entire Phoenecian fleet of their etremely sea-worthy ocean-going vessels could be housed in the canal areas to protect them against invaders and hostile attack. At the centre of this island-and-waterway-complex was a temple to their god Baal. Sounds suspiciously similar to me! I'm not sure but I think it was destroyed by some kind of cometary impact at the eastern end of the Mediterranean.

A new comment puts a blog back on the top of the list, so no need for this to become a feature - it can always be found on one of the following pages if it's dropped off the main first list and a new comment will restore it to the top.

Best wishes, Kathrinn

Olympus's picture
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The Benben stone is said to have been the first ever obelisk. The Egyptians say it's the first land mass that was observed (possibly after the great flood or movement or sorts) that became colonized and considered the new city of the sun Heliopolis (I think). It's been awhile since I've read up on ancient Egypt

http://hans.wyrdweb.eu/about-benben-stone/

the above link is to some more info

See video

this is a series of videos with some very relevant info, the narrators voice is a text to voice one so it's kinda shitty listening to it, regardless though, still good stuff

"We're all puppets, Jesus. I'm just the one that sees the strings, the stage, the puppetmaster, and the audience." Exerpt from a dialog Jesus and I had in your kitchen a week ago • • •*• •°•

Charles Pope's picture
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Kathrinn,

I think the marker at 12490 BC, if there is one, would be useful only to signify the end of the Age of Libra, although the rising of Venus at that particular date might also have been significant as the start of Virgo. The major (catastrophic) events were circa 13865 BC and 10700 BC, one in Libra and one in Virgo. The feminine sign of Libra was firmly established when the first disaster struck. That is the mythological key. The actual "sinking in one night" and Exodus of survivors may not have taken place until the Flood event of 9600 BC, however the downfall of Atlantis unfolded over the course of two Ages, Libra and Virgo.

In the Biblical Exodus account, the Lord who presides is emphatically feminine and associated with Venus. She will only reveal her backside to Moses, just as the planet Venus does during a transit. And due to resonance or sheer coincidence, it is always the same side of Venus that presents itself to viewers on Earth each and every time. Amazing! And all the more remarkable that the ancients understood this.

The Exodus from Atlantis can be seen as having taken place during the entire "transit/passage" of the Age of Virgo, however the re-enactment in the Book of Exodus involves a single generation. Much of the evacuation of Atlantis likely preceded the Flood event. In the Bible, Flood and Exodus are tightly coupled, and one queenly figure plays the role of both Virgo/Isis and Libra/Hathor. (In the Egyptian 18th Dynasty Exodus, Queen Tiye had the "honor" of that role. During the Flood that ended the Middle Kingdom, Queen Sobekneferu was in charge of evacuation operations.)

Did you have any ideas about the heavenly equivalent of Harakhty, Horus of the Horizons? What might a line connecting Vega and Arcturus represent?

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No, Charles, I have no idea what this connecting line between Vega and Arcturus might represent - sorry. Vega is one of the Pole stars, but Arcturus is not, so that is not a relevance either.

Re Moses and the 'backside' of the Lord in the Exodus account, I think this was more a case of the Ancients believing that the sun (Lord) we could see was not the real sun or 'Lord', but a reflection of it/him seen through a hole in the sky - that the 'greater light' was beyond our visible realm and thus we only saw the backside, so to speak. The sun's rays reaching earth were a sort of eidolon, or ghost of this reflection. I don't seem to connect this particular story in any way with a feminine influence - maybe just my view.

Not sure that I can come up with any more relevant information here, but it's been an interesting discussion, so thanks for bringing it up. Please feel free to ask anything else and I'll try to answer if I can.

Regards, Kathrinn

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In one tradition Venus in transit is thought of as carrying the sun on her shoulders. In the Book of Revelation she is a "woman clothed with the sun". I like the metaphor in Exodus 33 the best, i.e., Venus showing her figure silhouetted by the sun, but maybe it's because I'm a guy! The "Burning Bush" story is also clearly an encounter with a female deity (or at least a woman/queen in the role of a female deity). Besides the obvious sexual overtones of the burning bush metaphor, the "Lord's" self-proclaimed title, "I am that I am", is a play on Isis. It takes some getting used to, but the Patriarchal editorial style has not completely removed the "divine feminine" from the record. In fact, it is quite carefully preserved.

Regarding the zodiac sign of Venus (Virgo) there is almost universal agreement with regard to the representation of a "maiden". However, there are definite signs of an evolution with respect to the adjacent Age of Libra. The distinctive triangle of Libra was once considered to form the claws of Scorpius. The three stars all begin with Zubenel, Arabic for "claw" and was Hebraized as Zebulun. The constellation of Libra also was given the related epithet Zib-ba-an-na, Sumerian for "(the) balance" and evocative of the Egyptian goddess Maat. However, the idea of Libra being associated with judgment seems to have derived from the catastrophic event of circa 13865 BC. It also seems linked to the tradition that every major dynasty must end with female rule.

The ultimate division of this part of the night sky into two successive femiinine zodiac signs is also worth exploring. It seems related to the progession of a royal female from chaste/nymph princess to queen and finally to queen mother. Virgo encapsulated the role of the younger lady (Inanna/Isis/Ishtar/Venus) while Libra became the elder lady (Eve/Hathor/Ninhursag). Maat is a younger goddess, but the scales of judgment are in Libra. However, the name Zubenel/Zebulun became more closely tied to Virgo. Inanna was noted for her enormous size and Virgo is the largest zodiac constellation. Likewise, the largest planet Jupiter was once associated with Inanna and had the "Patriarchal" designation of Zebulun. So, there is some strange cross-coupling between these constellations even as there is in the goddess mythologies. There was also a major disaster in both signs, which no doubt contributed to the conflation.

red pill junkie's picture
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In the Biblical Exodus account, the Lord who presides is emphatically feminine and associated with Venus.

Well that makes sense, given the God of the Biblical Exodus is a real beeyatch :-P

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

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RPJ-

In the Egyptian version of the Exodus it is also a goddess that takes charge, more specifically Hathor is the guise of a raging lionness, Sekhmet.

Well, our lady Kathrinn is not wrathful but perhaps just bored with this topic now, so I'm trying to come to some conclusons.

Hercules is the upside-down constellation and the exploits of Hercules overturned the established order. In that sense Hercules and the the "Pillars of Hercules" stand in opposition to "Atlants". Titans fall and the subordinate line of the Adam ("seed/offspring of the woman/Eve by Adam) emerges as top dog. This the Bible's first "prophesy". Hercules himself could not found a dynasty, but paves the way for that of his father. The "four royal stars" illuminate the actual line of succession. Antares is in Scorpio/Adam. Aldebaran is in Taurus/Cain. Regulus is in Leo/Mehushael. Fomalhaut is in Pisces/Japheth, our present Age. (Although Ham/Horus was the first royal figure in Egypt, Japheth/Peribsen was progenitor of the pharoanic line that followed.)

This mythic struggle between the Titans and the demi-gods that brought them down must represent something more than cave man combat. If we allow ourselves to think really, really big, the battle just might represent one between the large but young Milky Way and the old but small galaxy called Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy Sagittarius (SagDEG), which has been going on perpetually for maybe a billion years. We have been pondering a" planet of crossing" in our solar system, but this must be merely a microcosm of a" galaxy of crossing" marked by the Age of Sagittarius. It seems that Sagittarius initially had the upper hand, but the Milky Way is finally gaining the upper hand.

In this model the last sign would be the goat-fish of Capricorn, the most bizarre and hybrid zodiac symbol, perhaps suggestive of the strange marriage of two highly dissimilar galaxies. Capricorn also represents Seth, whose first appearance is as a brutal killer (of Osiris/Orion). He is immortalized alongside his partner in crime Thoth. The two stand side-by-side in the constellation of Gemini. The first Seth is not of Adam's line and is the direct rival of Horus in Egyptian legends. He isn't even listed among the first set of Patriarchs in the Book of Genesis. However, the second Seth is a redeemed, even Messianc, figure like Horus/Hercules. He is born to Adam much later and founds a righteous line of Patriarchs. Likewise, the second coming of Seth in the heavens is in Capricorn. Ostensibly, this is not the Set/Seth we now call Satan, but the Seth venerated by the. Gnostics. The galactic assassin has become a good force and source of blessing.

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I'm not bored - I just didn't think I had anything more to contribute that was useful - I've been enjoying your posts greatly, but they delve into a sphere that I haven't explored very much.

I have, however, had another 'thought' and I'll get to investigating it as soon as possible. If it turns up something that I think may be of interest I'll share it with everyone, so 'watch this space'!

Best wishes, Kathrinn

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Looking forward to that Kathrinn!

In the meantime, I was doing a little R&D on the Capricorn sign and how it might better relate to the Egyptian god Seth/Set.

It seems that this sign was originally associated with the water god Ea/Enki/Ptah, hence the element of the fish tail. Both Ea and Set were gods associated with southern/lower regions. Hence, both can be associated with the Tropic of Capricorn, the line at which the sun makes its most southern descent.

Capricorn (Dec 21 - Jan 19) begins at the winter solstice, traditional time for the "death/rebirth of the king" (Osiris). As Set was the killer of Osiris (and Capricorn follows Aquarius), this has some significance.

Capricorn is linked to the house/planet of Saturn (for whatever reason). Only the second Seth was called a son of Adam (Saturn), so perhaps this is a reconciliation of the Seth type with the "righteous" line of Adam.

Capricorn is further linked to the minor Greek god Aristaeus ("the Best"), an epithet that is part of the characterization of Jacob's third son, Levi (Seth/Baal). Earth is the third planet and is certainly the very best of our sun's litter. We would also then expect a mapping of the watery third planet Earth to a zodiac sign representing Seth, especially one like Capricorn that is in the "watery" region of the sky.

The goat was not specifically associated with the god Set, but was (at least later on) a symbol of excess male sexuality and devil worship. The so-called Seth-animal seems to have derived originally from the Aardvark, a "creature of darkness" that haunted the southern regions of sub-Saharan Africa. The Seth-animal must have eventually morphed into its final form of a bizarre, otherworldly desert denizen.

What does this have to do with Atlantis? Not sure actually! Seth and Atlantean women were considered to be bossy red-heads, which seems to have contributed to their eventual villification. The red-headed 19th Dynasty pharaohs of Egypt were particulary devoted to the god Set/Seth.

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Sorry, I've been over-busy the last few days and haven't got around to my 'thought' yet, but I will. It might not fit in with your other ideas, but may still have some validity.

And - oh dear! - I'm a red-head (but not, I hope, bossy) - but I don't think I had Atlantean ancestry!!

Regards for now, Kathrinn

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Yup, a red-head with a lionness (Sekhmet?) icon. Hmmm. Oh well, so much for stereotypes. You must be the nicest, most considerate poster at TDG!

Not to worry if our ideas clash on this subject. Maybe some interesting twist will emerge from the exchange. Besides your post, I was also inspired by Greg's recent blog about SETI's search for extra-terrestrial life. The use of mythology as one viable method for narrowing the search is apparently not recognized by SETI. Too bad, because I think it really should be seriously pursued. Wouldn't it be ironic if Earth's most significant (present) influence is from the constellation of Seti/Seth (Capricorn?)! And what if the zodiac is giving us a general account of intelligent life in our dual (Milky Way/Sagittarius) galaxy as it has evolved over millions of years and involved star systems in each of the 12 regions of the night sky!

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At least she was supposed to be when I drew her!

Charles, I don't think our ideas clash - they are just running on different paths, although we may find that those paths are parallel. Sorry I haven't been able to either comment on some of your posts or contribute to them more but, as I said earlier, that's not my sphere of knowledge and anything I did say would be talking off the top of my head and probably irrelevant.

Hoped to get around to my 'thought' on Thursday but found out tonight that two friends I was expecting to visit me sometime soon are arriving then, so that put's my playing with my star-chart programme off yet again - sorry. I think I have 'thought' of something valid and am anxious to delve into it, so promise I'll do it first thing as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Can't delay the friends visit as I'm hoping they will put up a fence for me as I can't do it myself.

Interesting idea of yours about the zodiac and other galactic conjunctions/takeovers - have to think about that. More as soon as I can.

Regards, Kathrinn.

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Thank you for directing me to this thread, Charles Pope – it’s intriguing. I haven’t read all the way through it yet but I am wondering...

I think the Greeks associated Set with Typhon. Capricorn may be regarded as being linked to Bacchus via the myth regarding Typhon. The gods, including Zeus, Hera & Bacchus shape shifted to animal form to escape the creature (a ram, white cow & goat, respectively). At the sight of Typhon, Bacchus panicked and dived into the Nile but in his haste, failed to change completely, hence ending with the body of a goat and the tail of a fish. His ‘scream’ so distracted the monstrous Typhon that it afforded Hermes time to collect all of Zeus’ dismembered limbs & restore him, whereupon he (Zeus) placed Bacchus in the heavens. If so, would this link Capricorn to Osiris?

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Hi Cass,

Glad you're enjoying this. There are actually two more threads related to this topic:

Part 2:

http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

Part 3:

http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-...

Even after this, Kathrinn and I continued the dialog by email and were finally able to come to a conclusion/consensus. However, we never went back and posted it! I'll try to do that when I get a chance.

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Osiris seems to associate very well with Aquarius, but I would be open to revisiting that. Perhaps Set/Typhon should be associated with Aquarius and Osiris with Capricorn?

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It is interesting that the goat-fish is linked to Typhon AND Bacchus, and the signs of Capricorn and Aquarius are adjacent to one another. Maybe this has to do with the zodiacal age of Aquarius transitioning into Capricorn.

In Egyptian Myth, Set is the killer of Osiris, which makes a parallel to Capricorn figuratively putting an end to the age of Aquarius.

Set was also associated with certain aquatic animals, such as the crocodile and the hippo, but that seems a "far cry" from a goat-fish.

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Charles (and everyone else), my ‘thought’, which I have finally got around to investigating has proved more illuminating even than I earlier suspected and also ties up with ‘columns’ and ‘dynasties’ – although of a starry kind, not earthly ones!

I now have all the information I need to write something which I hope will be of interest, but that will take some sorting out – deciding how much to include and how much can be excluded, also how much explanation of various factors needs to be done.

I will work on this over the next few days and hope to share it sometime during next week (although I have another house-guest arriving on Sunday for three days which may cause another delay.) My first couple of guests (and dog) did indeed build my needed fence for which I am very grateful, but it was several days of ‘all-go’ from which I needed recovery and clean-up time afterwards.

The Part II post will be written as soon as possible, I promise. If anyone wishes to disagree with my illumination that is perfectly okay, and if anyone ever finds Atlantis on earth and produces real physical evidence for its genuine existence I will be quite happy to say my disbelief in its actuality is totally wrong.

Regards, Kathrinn

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Hi Kathrinn,

Columns and dynasties sound intriguing! Looking forward to that very much, but can definitely relate to life's other projects and obligations.

I'm finally getting around to reading Robert Bauval's "Egypt Code". Maybe that will trigger something new as well.

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My ‘thought’ and the explanation of where it has led me has turned into a fairly long post, so I’m first adding this short note and then another concerning the information about the precessional circle of pole stars as it seemed to be necessary. To have included the latter in my ‘thought’ post would have made that even longer than it is so I have separated it into a preliminary post.

For anyone finding this blog and posts for the first time, I would recommend that all is read, otherwise the ‘new’ posts may not make much sense. The rest will fill in the background.

I’ve found that I was partly wrong, but partly right, and now feel I have expanded my original idea towards a more acceptable conclusion. Maybe I’ll add all this as a chapter to my as yet unfinished book which I’ve been compiling for the last twenty years! Thanks to everyone – I’ve found it a very interesting quest.

Regards, Kathrinn

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For those who may not know, I should first explain about pole stars in the northern hemisphere before embarking on my great opus of illumination! There are nine pole star contenders, although in my opinion ten should be considered as one never counted is brighter than one that is and falls into a gap of nothingness. A star’s magnitude rating decreases as the star’s apparent brightness increases thus the three brightest stars in the northern hemisphere are Sirius with a magnitude of –1.48, Arcturus –0.04 then Vega at 0.03. Of those three, only Vega is a pole star.

Our present pole star is Polaris (old name Phoenix). It is not the brightest but is the star which comes closest to the pole, almost ‘grazing’ it (which is interesting in another context but not relevant here). However, Polaris is not always the pole star. Due to the phenomenon of precession caused by the earth’s axial tilt the pole star changes occasionally. Also during a 40,000 year period the earth’s axial tilt wanders in a slow spiral. This brings some stars slightly closer and some slightly further from the pole depending on the angle of tilt. Currently this stands at 23.5.

Following Polaris on the precessional circle in turn are Alrai, Alkirk, Alderamin and the Garnet star (in Cepheus), Deneb (in the tail of Cygnus the swan), Vega (in Lyra – the brightest pole star) and then a big gap as the precessional circle runs across the top of the dim constellation of Hercules (where I feel his right shoulder should be included to make ten), the rather faint star Thuban (in Draco), then Kochab (Ursa minor) until it finally returns to Polaris (also Ursa minor) some 25,920 years after it left. Some may feel that a number of these stars do not qualify as pole stars but as all in turn lie close to the precessional circle I feel they do deserve consideration.

In mythology and ancient tradition the pole star, which sits on or very close to the north meridian at midnight, is the crowning glory of the World Tree, World Pole, Mast or Column, still remembered today when we place a star at the very top of a Christmas tree. (Or an angel, as both ‘angels’ and ‘islands’ (in the waters of space) were ancient ways of referring to stars.)

A pole star’s more practical use is as an aid to navigation and orientation and they played very important roles in the lives of our distant ancestors.

Regards, Kathrinn

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Where to begin? Hmmm.

I think I now see Libra’s place more clearly and understand also why it is named after the scales or balance – the only inanimate member of the zodiac constellations. In times past, where the star-marker so far discovered lies, it is concerned with the earth’s axial tilt and the rise and fall of the dynasties of pole stars on the north meridian, the World Tree, pole, mast, pillar or column. In a larger context this may well also relate to Atlantis, if that place was mythologically among the stars and not an actual physical place on our planet.

As previously shown in my earlier post, Libra had sunk into the ‘sea’ below the horizon straight as an arrow-head for over 2000 years during the Age of Libra. It didn’t oblige in following the Atlantis story of ‘going down in three parts’, until 12,490 BCE, which made this date a definite star-marker. So I needed to find the reason such a star-marker was noted in mythology. The mention in another post of the fall of a column (pillar) signifying the end of a dynasty, and the fact that one of the Pillars of Hercules was a pole star produced the ‘thought’ which I have followed.

If the balance of the heavens fell into disarray then our ancestors would have no doubt that disarray would follow on earth. The planets, some constellations and the pole stars were their gods – the starry heavens their home - and these gods could dispense beneficence or judgement at will to those below.

There are many ancient tales of initiates ‘climbing the World Tree’ to commune with the gods, lifting their consciousness to higher dimensions to seek guidance or fore-knowledge with which to help their people and to intercede between humans and deities. Some of these tales and the notions arising from them seem specifically linked to certain pole stars depending on the culture of the people involved and conditions pertaining on the earth at certain times.

The loss of a certain pole star sitting atop the ‘column’ of the north meridian is really no different from the rise and fall of earthly civilisations, and the loss of a certain star falling away from the meridian due to the precessional cycle would have been viewed as a total disaster to the people of that era – a judgement by the gods. Their world would not have regained balance or stability until another star was in place on top of the column, when order would again have been restored in both heaven and on earth..

In my starry investigations I’ve used the dates 10,700 BCE (ice) and 9,600 BCE (water) as search points. Although it fell before the 12,490 BCE star-marker, I am also including the 13,865 BCE catastrophe (fire) as it is relevant to what follows.

On the vernal equinox of July 4th 13,865 BCE the sun was sitting right on the leading point of Libra, the star Zubenelchemale at 2.61 magnitude. It is referred to as the ‘Northern Claw’ and may have faded over time as Ptolemy listed it as a 1st magnitude star.

The word ‘claw’ derives from the Aryan base *glew meaning ‘to form a ball’. Some words derived from that include ‘globe’ (Latin) and ‘cleave’ (English of Germanic origin), relevant to both our planet and the north celestial pole.

At this time, and during the Age of Libra, there was a displacement of pole stars in progress with Deneb (Cygnus the Swan) challenging its predecessor the Garnet Star (Mu Cepheus). At the start of the Age of Libra the north meridian fell just about half-way between the two stars, moving towards Deneb. The Garnet Star was so named by William Herschel due to its glowing blood-red fiery colour. The fall of its dynasty would have been seen as a baptism of fire, inspired by its appearance.

By the time the star-marker of 12,490 was noted, Deneb in the tail of the Swan, was undisputedly in place as the pole star. This was during the reign of ice, and its supremacy lasted some 3000 years. Swans are members of the goose family and figure greatly in myth. Considered mystical birds, geese appeared in autumn to winter in more convivial areas, but in summer returned to their mysterious and unknown home where the pole star resided in the northern icelands. Their overhead honking during migration gave rise to the stories of the Wild Hunt and many goddesses were depicted either riding on swan’s backs or in swan-drawn boats. Hindu shamans wore swan-feather cloaks in mimcry of the gods whom they believed took the form of a swan. Celtic monks saw them as symbols of the god-spirit, and as sacred birds they could not be eaten.

So although the heavenly balance was temporarily upset by the fall of the dynastic column of the Garnet star, it was soon to be restored by the rise of Deneb. Noting the displacement of Libra on the ecliptic was a useful marker to direct attention to what was occurring at the earth’s axis point.

Moving forward in time, in 10,700 BCE Deneb was losing its place at the top of the world’s ‘column’ to be challenged by Vega, the brightest of the pole stars, and one of the Pillars of Hercules. The age of ice was coming to an end both above and below.

In 9,600, when the earth was said to be overwhelmed by water and ‘Atlantis’ was sunk by the gods as punishment for a misuse of power, the vernal equinox on June 5th saw the rising sun preceded by an impressive and powerful array of planets. Venus, Jupiter, the Moon, Mars, Mercury and Saturn were all within 40 of the sun whereas Neptune (the god of the sea) was submerged below the horizon. Vega was still in place near the pole but fast losing its status to the dim and murky stars of Hercules, which had no pole star of which to boast

So where does that leave my mythical Atlantis in the heavens? Well, not quite where I originally thought. It would appear that Libra ‘going down in three parts’ as Atlantis was supposed to have done, was used as a star-marker to point the way to the pole, perhaps the actual home of this mysterious place which is still being sought in every corner of our planet. Libra pointed the way to the precessional circle of the pole stars.

According to the sinking-of-Atlantis story, if this really refers to the fall of the dynasties of pole stars, then when Vega lost its position the precessional circle moved into an area where the ‘sea’ (waters of space) turned ‘muddy’ (wasn’t blessed with bright stars), although it was dotted with ‘islands’ (faint stars) and thus became ‘un-navigable’ (no pole star for guidance). This was to last for some 6,000 years across nearly three zodiacal Ages before Thuban (in Draco) became pole star during the Egyptian era.

As the earth’s axial tilt varies over time from 22 through 23 to 24 and back again this gives three circular areas containing stars and this could be viewed as three circular islands separated by the stretches of empty waters-of-space between – metaphorically speaking, canals. Maybe this was a mythical description of Poseidonia the chief city of Atlantis. It was also said that the central island there (perhaps really the north celestial pole) contained a temple to the god (the ruling pole star?). Is it co-incidence that at the time given for the deluge Neptune (Poseidon) at dawn was still behind the sun in the ‘sea’ (below the horizon), unlike the other planets.

I believe also that it was said that prior to sinking, the continent was divided into ten parts, one part for each of the sons (suns?) of the monarch (north celestial pole?). In my view ten stars could be claimed to be pole stars, although some of these never get a mention and others are of little use to a mariner. Perhaps that is another piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

Strangely enough, the word ‘atlantes’ is an architectural term meaning a certain type of pillar!

Our ancestors spent a great deal of time studying the stars – they held sacred meaning for them. In our modern arrogance we think we know more than they did, but this is constantly being proved not to be so as more information is decoded from myth, cave paintings and megalithic alignments. They could well have been better astronomers than we are. They were also smart enough to use star-markers or star/planet-patterns to fix dates and events in time – ever-present and immutable – so that they could be found by future peoples regardless of what calendar those later people might be using.

Sorry this has been a long post, and hope it may have been of some interest. It has been a most enjoyable and enlightening investigation for me, so thank you to those who asked me to expand on my original post. I feel I’ve learned much.

Regards, Kathrinn

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Strangely enough, the word ‘atlantes’ is an architectural term meaning a certain type of pillar!

From the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language, the word atlante means "each one of the statues of men which, instead of columns, are placed in the Atlantic order (?), and support on their shoulders or heads the architraves of the columns"

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Kathrinn,

You caught me working on other stuff and I missed your post(s) from a couple of days ago.

I definitely like where you're going with this.

The story of Samson having his eyes put out and being forced to push the circular mill ties into it as well. Samson (a.k.a. Ham/Horus/Hercules) is a dark figure and, as you note, occupies a portion of the sky with no distinct guiding (pole star) light. Hercules emerges in a time of chaos and unifies by conquest. Hence he "powers" the proverbial mill.

There may be some confusion/conflation when it comes to pillars and Hercules (Horus) as opposed to pillars and Atlas (Geb). Libra (Hathor) is associated very closely with both of these male gods. Geb was in particular the "bull of his mother" Hathor, although the union appears to have been infertile. Geb, the designated "heir", is a hyper-sexual god that forces himself even upon Hathor with a degree of impunity. Geb corresponds to Saggitarius/Cygnus, an extremely "procreative" region of the night sky. However in the opinion of myth, it was excessively/destructively so, and is therefore pronounced disgraced/disinherited.

Horus the Younger/Child (Aries) is the offspring of Hathor/Hera by one of her other sons, Horus the Elder (Leo). This relationship was considered more beneficial and praise-worthy. In Greek Myth, although Hera persecutes Hercules, it is evidently for some "higher purpose" and not pure spite. He turns out to be her true son, although certainly not her only son or highest-ranking son.

(By the way, Egyptologist Rosemary Clark, author of Sacred Magic of Ancient Egypt, agrees with me that the god Set corresponds to Capricorn, although we disagree on many other mappings.)

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Your remark about Samson/Hercules 'having his eye put out' was interesting, as it certainly ties in with there being no pole star in that part of the precessional circle (Hamlet's Mill, as you say).

It was also interesting in the fact that the designated heir Geb corresponds to Sagittarius/Cygnus as Deneb (in Cygnus) ruled the pillar of the pole for so long.

As I said before - I don't understand the niceties of the dynasties of the gods of mythology, as nearly all my research has involved stars and star patterns rather than Greek/Egyptian/tribal mythical stories and their associations, so that part of the question I'll have to leave up to you! Obviously it is of great interest to you and I hope my thoughts may in some way interact.

Best wishes, Kathrinn

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Thanks for the two pics. Yes, the atlantes/pillars word did refer to pillars carved to look like men holding up the entablature of a building and were supposed to look as if they were carrying something very heavy - no doubt a reference to Atlas and the task he was given.

When I mentioned that in my post I was thinking of the fact that Atlas, for whatever violation he'd supposedly committed (can't remember what!), was condemned to hold up the celestial sphere on his shoulders - no doubt a reference to the precessional circle at the pole which would have been a weighty responsibility. Also, the Atlas mountains are on the Moroccan side of what we sometimes poetically refer to as the Pillars of Hercules, namely the land on either side of the Strait of Gibraltar - the left-hand side looking west. It was on the left hand side of Hercules that the pillar of Vega as pole star fell as the cycle moved beyond it across the top of the constellation of Hercules itself - thereby leaving nothing holding up that side so to speak, which is maybe why Atlas was given the job.

The Polynesian navigators' considered guiding stars which they used as 'star pillars', even if they were not pole stars, but simply ones that crossed the zenith at the latitude of the place to which they were sailing. Makes me wonder about the statues on Easter Island and whether they were sited beneath certain stars which held some significance either for natives of the island or Polynesians in general.

Where are the statues/pillars in your second picture please?

Regards, Kathrinn

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Those are the "atlantes" found in the city of Tula

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Good stuff!! Have astronomers discovered any relatively recent supernovae associated with the constellation of Hercules?

In myth, Hercules cleans out the manure-filled stables of King Augeus by diverting a river. This associates with the Great Flood that wiped out Atlantis and its reputedly corrupt civilization. The Biblical analog is found in the story of Ham establishing dominance, physically and sexually, after the Great Flood of Noah wiped all the (other) "reprobates" from the face of the Earth.

In a subsequent "labor", Hercules rescues Prometheus (another gifted dynastic loser) and is in turn advised by Prometheus on how to steal the apples that Hera had given to Zeus. He tricks Atlas into bringing the apples to him. This ties into Atlas/Geb possessing the sexual prerogatives of the heir, i.e., to sire the next generation of rulers. Apples are symbolic of sexual relations, and it is interesting that Hera gives the apples to Zeus as Eve gives the forbidden fruit to Adam. She is performing a superior role in that respect. She is dictating reproduction and claiming the right to polyandery (with Adam and God/Zeus).

It's also interesting that Hercules is the nemesis of the Titans even as Greece was the nemesis (and downfall) of the Atlanteans. But, for whatever reason Hercules "burned out" and did not benefit directly ("dynastically" speaking) from his conquest. The mutual self-destruction of Geb/Saggitarius and Hercules leads to the rise of a third line. Hercules steals the royal breeding privileges much akin to Jacob stealing the birthright from Esau. Even so, he is unable to capitalize and produce the next dynasty. He ends up playing spoiler to the good fortune of a brother by a different mother (and the same mother-f***-er).

Surely there is a galactic inspiration for all these mythic shenanigans of incest, rape and murder! Surely it reflects the turbulent and traumatic nature of the heavens. There is no peace here, because there is no peace up there. But, is there a story of a cosmic race to tell?

I finished reading Bauval's "Egypt Code" but still need more time to digest. Bauval believes that the Great Egyptians derived their knowledge of the stars organically (without help from Atlanteans or other illicit aliens) and were mainly just correlating star cycles with the natural cycles of the Nile. It is very clever and useful what they did with the rising of Orion and Sirius, but surely we are not crazy to look for something more to it than an ancient Farmer's Almanac. Bauval also accepts the standard chronology, so many of his conclusions in Egypt Code that involve alignment of temples in the dynastic/pharaonic period are invalidated on that basis alone. I'll try to post some more specific notes later.

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Re possible supernovae in the constellation of Hercules - I don't know, Charles, but will dig around and see if I can find out. The reference to Hercules 'burning out' could well refer to a supernova event. If I find anything I'll add it to this blog.

Re the Egyptians star knowledge, I think it much more likely that they learned it from an older civilisation which may have inhabited much the same area, or from the Nubians (who are credited with first developing and naming the zodiac) than that they happened across it themselves. The rise of the Egyptian civilisation as we know it seemed to come complete with advanced knowledge of just about everything (except the concept of building arches) including astronomy. I don't think it was necessarily something they inherited from 'aliens' - ancient peoples were, as I've said before, much smarter than we give them credit for. The 'aliens' hypothesis comes in handy, though, as then we don't have to admit that we may not be smarter than our ancestors were!

All the best in your searches. Regards, Kathrinn

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I thought they (the atlantes) might be somewhere in Mexico. Very interesting article about Tula. Thanks. I'd like to know more about the Toltecs.

Regards, Kathrinn

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One of the Toltec rulers was a man called Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl, who the archeologists recognize as the "historical" Quetzalcoatl, and not to be confused with the mythological feathered serpent deity worshiped by all Mesoamerican cultures.

A fascinating character. He's the one who the Aztecs were waiting to return. Was he a Viking? a Templar? an Ancient Astronaut perhaps? He's certainly a great legend :)

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

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Kathrinn's picture
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Very interesting.

I think I am right in saying that the Aztec word 'atl' means 'water' (correct me if I'm wrong please). Maybe this is where the Atlantic ocean acquired its name - although I don't know what the 'antic' part might mean.

Also that 'acatl' means 'arrow' - the head of which is what the constellation of Libra looks like.

More thoughts to ponder!

Regards, Kathrinn.

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More things keep surfacing! It's almost as if all of history and mythology follow a certain fractal design :)

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

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Charles Pope's picture
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I took the circle of the Zodiac and overlaid it onto the north pole of my handy-dandy plug-in globe. When I put the border between Gemini and Taurus, representing the constellation of Orion, over Egypt, then Libra falls directly over Mexico!

Here's the complete mappings:

Libra - Mexico, Central USA
Scorpio - Western USA, Western Pacific Ocean
Saggitarius - Hawaiian Pacific
Capricorn - Micronesia
Aquarius - N. China (Peking/Beijing), Japan, Korea
Pisces - Mongolia, Tibet, SE Asia
Aries - Iran, Afghanistan, India
Taurus - Russia, Syria, Turkey
Orion - Egypt
Gemini - Germany, Italy, Greece, Crete, N. Africa
Cancer - England, France, Spain, West Africa
Leo - Atlantic Ocean
Virgo - E. USA (Colonial America), Florida, Carribean

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I don't quite know how you managed to put an equatorial circle over the north pole, but I'll take your word for it that you did!

If you leave the zodiac around the equatorial area and start by finding a map of the Pacific, it is surprising how Taurus fits neatly along the north side of PNG, Aries over the Solomons, Pisces over Fiji and the Kermadec trench, and Aquarius almost perfectly fitting the Tuamoto group of reefs and atolls. (Tuamoto, incidentally, in Polynesian means 'the islands of the old ones'). That leaves Capricorn to span most of the remainder of the Pacific, with its head maybe on Easter Island or the Galapagos (perhaps why its symbol is a goat with a fishes tail), Sagittarius pointing at the South American mainland then Scorpio and Libra over Mexico as in your pole-orientated finding. The Atlantic belongs to Virgo a large constellation and Leo to North Africa (and the Egyptians were big on lions). Cancer would then sit over the eastern Mediterranean lands (flowing with milk and honey possibly because of the globular cluster the Beehive and its flanking stars the Asses). That only leaves Gemini to fill in the gap to Taurus - and I can't think of one good reason why it should! Possibly just a silly idea, but I've always been impressed by how closely the Tuamotos resemble Aquarius.

Still digging about supernovae and Hercules, but I think such very ancient information will only come out of myth as the earliest astronomial records are apparently those of the Chinese dating from the Han Dynasty 206 BCE to 220 CE. The birth of M13 in Hercules (brightest globular cluster in the northern hemisphere) was waaaaay too long ago to fit any of our hypotheses. Will keep looking.

Regards, Kathrinn

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Yes I think a slight shift is in order as you suggest. Unless of course there really was a sunken "continent" in the Atlantic (with lions and such) a long, long, time ago! Also, could Orion possibly still "map" to Egypt if you start at one end of the constellation rather than the other? I think it is significant that the so-called "water signs/constellations" superimpose the largest ocean.

The Great Pyramid indicates that the entire Earth had been precisely surveyed in pre-historic times. A correlation of zodiac signs to geographic regions would tend to corroborate. However, I'm still leaning toward an extra-terrestrial influence. Mankind, left to its own devices, tends to take a bottom-up approach to cosmology. The ancient system is clearly top-down ("as above so below"). That tells me modern man's origin is from the heavens and not entirely evolved on the earth.

I'm going to look at the labors of Hercules more carefully and see what else pops out.

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I don't think Orion could connect to Egypt under my geographical/constellations system - more likely, as it lies below the join-up link between Gemini and Taurus, that it would sit over Australia, but then who's to say my idea is the right one?

There is a vague link geographically between Orion's bow and either the Great Barrier Reefs or the islands of New Zealand (either place being a possible destination if Orion sat over the Oz mainland). After the deluge, according to the Bible, God promised not to bring a flood upon the earth again and as a reminder of his promise would 'set his bow in the clouds'. (Note he did not say 'rainbow' - that is a later assumption). The word 'cloud' can also mean a reef of rocks (as in the Barrier Reefs), and New Zealand's native name of Aoteoroa means 'land of the long white cloud'. The Maori name for Orion is Arotoru, which to me sounds suspiciously similar to Ararat, where Noah was supposed to wash up.

There was, apart from Atlantis, supposedly a lost continent in the Pacific - that of Mu or Muror. This, I think is quite possible. One of the reefs in the Tuamoto Group is called Muroroa, although I don't think too much of it is left since the French had their little incendiary parties there. Another atoll rejoices in the name of Nibiru (truly - I'm not joking!).

Sorry - I'm wandering off the original subject here and I, too, intend to revisit the labours of Hercules as I think you may well be right that there was a bright star or globular cluster there which is no longer, but finding information about it may well prove impossible. I will live in hopes! Sometimes information turns up in the most unlikely places and when least expected, and that's half the fun!

Best wishes, Kathrinn

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Katthrinn the Great,

If Cancer overlays North Africa and Taurus is over PNG (Papua New Guinea), then Gemimi would have to span all the continent of Asia. That doesn't seem to work.

Mu might very well have been the original lost/sunken continent in the Pacific, although some now think it was in SE Asia. Good point.

Hercules' 9th Labor involves defeat of three female (Amazonian/Atlantean) rulers.

The 3rd Labor is also related to the Libra discussion. In that episode Hercules pursues the deer/hind of Ceryneia all the way to Hyperborea ("far north", another land of "apples") and brings her back to Greece. The dappled deer (biblical "tribe of Naphtali) represents the Great Goddess. This was more of a "labor of love" and necessary to show that Hercules had prevailed both with gods and goddesses, and was therefore worthy of kingship. In other labors he gains dominance over the lion (a rival to the dynastic house of Horus the Elder/Judah), the boar (Apollo/Set), the bird (Hermes/Thoth), a crab (Shu/Enlil), the bull (Zeus/Anu-On), horses and cattle (Mars/Re), and the centaur Chiron/Aeacus (representing his true father Adad/Horus the Elder).

The accidental wounding by Hercules of Chiron's foot is an attempt to explain the hereditary foot/leg disease(s) of the royal family.

Hercules is often assisted by neo-Joseph/Pisces/water god-figures (Prometheus, Iolaus), and this is the dynastic line of a half-brother (Peleus/Japheth) that ultimately capitalizes on his exploits.

It was offered (by Molorchus) to sacrifice a ram on behalf of Hercules, because his particular sign is Aries.

Hercules has the epithet of "bright-eyed". In Egyptian myth, Set stole the left/lunar eye of Horus and divided it into six parts. It was later restored by Thoth and came to symbolize wholeness and restoration from sickness and chaos. The right/solar eye of Horus does not seem to suffer any trauma.

The Moses story, strongly based on the Hercules/Horus in the bullrushes typecasting, also involves blinding. Some of his more rebellious followers fear that Moses will blind them. However, at the end of his long life, the "eye of Moses" is said to be "undiminished". But, perhaps this means his eye-sight had been restored rather than always remaining perfect. Hercules is an "avenger" and Moses demands "an eye for an eye". Samson is blinded in both his eyes and then destroys the two main pillars (symbolic of two bright eyes/stars) of his enemy. New Testament Jesus also heals the blind man in identification with both Horus/Hercules and Thoth/Hermes. He also frees souls from Hades as Hercules does in his final labor by removing Cerberus, the watchdog that prevents souls from escaping Hades.

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I said that Leo covered North Africa and Cancer would belong to the lands at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, not that Cancer would cover North Africa. That would leave Gemini representing India between Cancer and Taurus, not all of the Asian mainland. Think you got that a bit muddled. I realise that's still a fair distance, and I did say it was only an idea I had.

I struggled with the Labours of Hercules all morning without any successful thoughts arising - your post may help, so I'll study it tomorrow. In fact, by lunchtime I'd almost come to the conclusion that the Hercules of the Labours was a different Hercules from that of the constellation. Will give it more thought.

Best wishes, Kathrinn